xtcian

My 3 roommates(Tadych, Shroom, Mike) & I pledge allegiance to American Coastopia. Since we are already located in beautiful Burbank, California we have nothing to do other than work on getting our loved ones out of the war-mongering, racist, homophobic, jesus-freaked, sexist, selfish, small-picture seeing, Mother Earth raping, Bush run country I am sad to call America.

"America I've given you all and now I'm nothing.
America two dollars and twenty-seven cents January 17, 1956.
I can't stand my own mind.
America when will we end the human war?
Go fuck yourself with your atom bomb
I don't feel good don't bother me.
I won't write my poem till I'm in my right mind.
America when will you be angelic?
When will you take off your clothes?
When will you look at yourself through the grave..........."

I feel sick at the moment. If there is room in your new country please take me in because I am through with this one. I can't look anyone in the eye this morning without wanting to scream. Tell me I'm still asleep.

Steve

the Chi Psi house can be your Camp David

It's a Lodge, not a house. I feel like I live in the West Berlin of America Coastopia here in Durham.
Go Heels.

It ain't over 'til Sy Hersh writes 7000 words saying it's over.

Or until Newt Gingrich is heading public broadcasting.

We Canadians officially recognize the sovereign nation of AMERICAN COASTOPIA and look forward to strong artistic and trade relations with your fair country with which we thankfully share two borders.

Take Raleigh with you! I know we've been bad in the past with all the rampant NCSU support, but we'd gladly chop that arm off to join up. Don't leave us in the dark with the Shrub!

HURRAY! I already live in American Coastopia! Although since Maryland is a border state, I suspect I'll have be pretty vigilant. And DC? All except for the White House, please. The Smithsonian Institution is too cool to give to them. Or maybe we could just force them to relocate to Tex-ASS.

mmmmm...hazelnut lattes...

i was also trying to decide which country to move to...and american coastopia sounds lovely. just need to find a man to share it (and my latte) with and it will be heaven.

*sigh*

my favorite (although i don't think favorite is the right word) headline from today's NY papers : ON THE BRINK -- a phrase normally reserved to describe pending war or other such distaster, not the end of an election. quite appropriate in this instance.

i'm gonna go be sick now.

Hey now ... Janeane Garofalo on Air America last night suggested something similar a secession yes, but also a merger. Consider this an official invitation to Coastopia to join Canada. Together we can kick their mean-spirited asses. And we will do so in a very orderly fashion.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/3728/15173

http://www.americablog.blogspot.com/

Did you wonder why the exit polls in Ohio and Florida have not matched the "official" returns?

This time they're stealing two states, and at least one Kerry operative knows it. Pass it on.

If peaceful revolution is made impossible, the only option left is...?

Whoever is president, it doesn't have to change who we are or how we act. It is frustrating, but we can go to Coastopia in our minds every time we give our time or money to charity or argue with a homophobe.

At 4 a.m. ABC said that their exit polls showed that in middle America, the top concern was "moral issues," and Iraq was around 4th. It's scary that people less worried about bombs than whether Heather has two moms.

sign me up; unless i can figure out a way to hide out in france for the next four years. nights like last night remind of why i left north carolina after graduation and never looked back (except to visit la famille abandonée)

Can someone come get me? I'm too depressed to get out of my pajamas.

Another thing--please someone, ask Al Jazeera to broadcast the electoral map so that the arab nations will know which states tried. Hopefully they'll blow targets in Texas or something, and not take it out on New York any more.

Can I please appeal to the Coastopians to accept the northernmost municipalities of Virginia? We too have been suppressed by the mindless majority. I'm not asking that you take all of Northern Virginia, just the part inside the beltway. OK, maybe just Arlington & Falls Church - or just my house?

Oh, and I'd like a SOY hazelnut latte - what with me being all lactose intolerant and all that...

Let's add Michigan, too--it's a blue state, barely. Or at least add Ann Arbor, Michigan. Please. I'm ready to go.

At then end of the Revolutionary War there was a migration north of people we call Loyalists and you call Tories. Locally the Mohawk community here in Eastern Ontario in large part came from that migration and was a large part of the safeguard of Canada which protected our then western borders through the war of 1812. Time for another migration? Or a succession?

This made me smile for the first time today. Yes, yes and more yes to American Coastopia!

people of Coastopia, join with me in emailing our former country parents daily the deathcount in Iraq, so they can feel really, really bad.

people of Coastopia, join with me in emailing our former country parents daily the deathcount in Iraq, so they can feel really, really bad.

No, Wake County is not welcome!!

http://www.newsobserver.com/content/election2004/general/wake/W-PresidentAndVicePresident.html

Surviving in the DMZ of Hillsborough, NC

Fuck, this is a bad hangover, I HATE THE HINTERLAND

I do like the lingua franca of Coastopia:
haughty witty commentary on topics political,
artistic, and bizarre

Do you really want Merkin in the name?
Let's get rid of that scheme alltogether.
Coastopia United has a good ring!!

We are bringing our first child into this world
in several weeks. We look forward to many things,
but living in the the police state of US is
not one of them.

We never did watch a lot of TOOB, and will
trend towards 0 from now on.

We're gonna beat the hell out of drums tonight!

An INDICTMENT, I envision W in my djembe head

FUCK YOU CHIMP ASS FUCKSQUAT SHRUB!

Can we legislate us some love in American Coastopia?
Cause I'm really tired of legislating hate.

The responses from our friends north of the border gave me an idea...let's go ahead and make Canada the 51st state...then their electoral votes will swing the election to Kerry.

The 51st state? How about making Canada the 51st through 62nd states, so that our more evolved neighbors will have influence in the Senate?

OK, so Alberta will probably elect Republicans, but Saskatchewan and maybe the Yukon might actually elect a Green, and just think how much fun it will be to have the Senators from Quebec annoying Senator FreedomFries.

dude. you forgot boulder, colorado.
i am in south carolina now!! ahhh!!
but i am going to boulder in december.
so you should add it to the map. i am sure everyone there will appreciate it.

thanks for this post. long live american coastopia!!!

If I am to take any comfort at all today (I am wearing black, my eyes are closed in disbelief), it is that I live in New England, surrounded by like-minded and scared people. I'm already IN Coastopia and glad of it.

But also, one of my reactions this morning was to creatively resist. I can't help or stop it anymore. I want to write plays, poems, street theater, make t-shirts, whatever it takes!

I want to talk to the married women in the Midwest who overwhelmingly voted for Bush because of his moral values. What are moral values exactly? Is killing children in Iraq a moral value, or does that not count because it's not America?

I'm sorry I'm rambling now. So upset...This site has helped a little. Thanks, Ian.

The pentumverate has spoken. :( I hate the pentumverate. I don't think I've ever felt so empty. despondent. angry. just plain sad.

Cheryl--you want to talk to married women in the midwest about their moral values? I did that for the past four months on the forum boards at www.crimescene.com Click community, then general discussion, then argument and debate. The participants are mostly from Indiana.

You probably won't like it if you do, though. They just pooh-poohed everything I said, relied on Fox News and the Swift Boat Liars for information and in general confirmed the worst stereotypes you may ever have had about church ladies. Yesterday (I'm not making this up), they were discussing a rumor that Kerry and his wife were both Jewish. Today they're probably hopefully looking forward to the construction of gas ovens at Guantanamo. I don't know; I've left that site for good. But you're welcome to pick up where I left off. There's a chance my head may have weakened the stone wall a bit for you.

i'm stunned at what has become of america, the so-called UNITED states. so much for that - i'm so grateful to be in PA, a part of the new nation of American Coastopia.

and i can only shake my head in horrified disbelief at the mess created by that bastard in the white house and fear what is to come. we can't withstand another 4 years of his "leadership". someone save us all.

Piglet--I just looked on that site (thank you), which is quite scary. The combination of people perversely interested in crime scenes AND right-wing agendas is too much for me to handle. Maybe another day.

someone help!

I am in love with you both. Irredeemably smitten. This is the best idea ever. I pledge eternal allegiance. BTW: Faboo idea to take all the funny people -- but it's really a moot issue since THEY DON'T HAVE ANY.

in case american coastopia doesn't work out...another option for those of you/us who are single

http://www.marryanamerican.ca/

:-)

Wisconsin wants in, too. it's got a bad rep for being conservative, but has gone for the Democrat in the last four elections. plus Madison is San Francisco, just without all the coastline and salt water.

also please note: Minnesota went for Kerry, too.

as a resident of the Southern part of Western Coastopia, i'm heartened to read this. see y'all at the next Coastopia Citizen Meeting!

A tarheel living in Decatur, GA. Three out of four people in my state just voted to discriminate against me. I sit here devastated, by the overwhelming numbers, by the thought of at least 4 more years of "he whose name shall not be spoken." I'm glad there is at least one piece of the southeast in American Coastopia. I hate cold weather! Although the chill down here is of a different kind, and a sweater won't help.

I want to join American Coastopia! I've already resigned from my former position as Patriotic Citizen (http://jvlbaritone.blogspot.com). Feel free to use my letter of resignation as a model for your own!

I LOVE Coastopia! We're moving!

check out www.dooce.com and her daily photo where you can comment... I posted Coastopia!

Go Coastio!

Yay! New Orleans made it!

(But hey, it really will take an army to get the Bush-supporters out of here - they're everywhere!)

I'm IN. And thank GOD you're bringing my Heels - I need some Carolina Blue in this self-righteously redneck state of Georgia (Atlanta included.)

Who's got the Blue Cups?

as long you democrats continue to look down your snooty noses at the rest of america, you will continue to lose ground in the USA. best of luck with USofC and enjoy your latte.

Keep chins up, everyone! All we can do is continue to be the best people we can, and to try to be a positive influence for dumb asses. At least the Red Sox won.

I am sickened by the fact that it is OK to bomb woman and children and to invade another country on a false pretense. I am sickened that 51% of my countrymen voted for a liar, cheat and thief but vilified Clinton for a consentual extra marital affair. I am sickened by the fact that this country, founded on the separation of church and state, is trying to force faux "christian" morals down my throat. I am sickened that 51% of Americans are too phucking lazy and stupid to think for themselves and rely on lies, pretext and the obfuscation of some right wing media outlets. I live in NJ and already am part of Coastopia - thankfully. But my heart and my soul ache for this once great nation. I don't know how we're ever going to survive the next four years. I fear for the children and the children's children who will be saddled with this administration's rampant spending.

Who is db and how did she get into Coastopia? We need a secret code. Maybe a new language? Oh, and I'm wondering if Durham can slide over and link up with a larger mass of Coastopia. It's a bit frightening here in the middle of all this red.

I have found my new home, since I know you will take in and old FDR liberal and embrace her..Usually , I can think of something clever and funny to say, but my brain is mush today..I am happy that you include California as I live in a little place on the central coast..

I'm in, and thank goodness I am lucky enough to live in Durham, so I don't even have to move!

As usual - the party i joined and loved in 1980 is once again proving to me that switching party affliation to Red was the right move. The Dem party was not originated on the platform of hatred and elitism...unfortunately the party has become just that of which it is supposed to combat. so very sad. Incidentally, your new land DOES, indeed, have an official language...ebonics. unfortunately, not enough of the native ebonic-speaking population can get out of their escalades, and put down their bling-bling long enough to go and friggin' vote. yet they continue to complain. hmmm. Enjoy your new land and your lattes -- i'm off to a victory party.

this has been a bad dream and the reality was all too many people today suggested leaving the united states. it's been too long that the ignorant masses have lead the intelligent. we should be directing, not some cowboy pork-rind eating hick. true democracy. no electoral college bullshit. true democracy. Somebody has got to have the sense to set up a web site that can tally the opinions of all. We can post current issues on the web with straight verbage. If we pass bills that modify the language of another, the current wording and the intended change will be included immediately. No hunting around the internet for another bill and trying to figure out what the hell is changing. We need to get rid of as many ideas as possible from this hellish nightmare. people who use the expression "god bless america" in public addresses will be airlifted immediately to oklahoma. Textbooks will include true history regardless of whether something we did turned out to be erroneous; we want our children to learn from our mistakes. There should be no question about how to start, we just take the land and call it ours. it's been done before.

Don't forget Minnesota! We went Blue, too, and don't want to be left out of the new state! Plus, we're the home of the late Paul Wellstone!

Yeah - MN PLEASE!!!! Take us with you!! Duluth was OVERWHELMINGLY BLUE....sorry too many caps and exclamation points but if you don't take us I'm heading north to the border. Waaaaah

"...to look down your snooty noses at the rest of america..."
Actually, my nose is more angry and piteous than snooty. Let's not forget that half the country has been wrong before. Hopefully less will die this time. I think one upside of this ridiculous race will be that partisanship will cease to get a bad rap among supporters of the majority and minority alike. I suppose now a lot more people will see wars in the capitol as really about something and--as I felt inspired to hear Barbara Pelosi comment on NPR--and the populace will become familiar enough with the actual right-wing agenda that it's representatives can no longer sell themselves as sensible moderates.

bye.

Sorry "right-wing" isn't really a useful term these days. Let me change that to "plutocratic, anti-diplomatic, intolerantly socially conservative agenda" (PADISCA?)

mmmbye-bye. mmmbye-bye.

I am sure that my fellow DEMOCRATIC-voting Oklahomans would beg to differ with your insulting rhetoric. Ya'll come back now, ya here?

What? No Austin? We hate that idiot in the WH and we have great music! We also have Molly Ivins and Jim Hightower and the Texas Observer. Take us, PLEASE!

Nah-nah-nah I'm not listening...slavery is in the Bible...I earned it, it's mine...lah-lah-lah

Don't forget about Hawaii!! It is way too cool to leave behind! I'm grateful that I already live in a Coastopian state. A couple of weeks ago I expressed the desire to move to another country if the stupid one won. This has provided me with a nice alternative. Thank you.

Take Colorado too. I don't like Bush anyway, and you could use the ski resorts.

Thank you! I too want to be a member of Coastopia, even though I live in FL currently. Where should I move?

C.

Do we really have to include the hate-mongers in Oregon?

Hi Ian. Your citizens of Coastopia are starting to scare me. . . everyone sounds like the "hatemongers" from which they are hoping to extricate themselves! Anyway, you should be proud of yourself for all of your efforts -- on your blog, in OH, etc. You tried your best to rock the vote, and by God you did. That is really all that you can do. In a democracy, everyone's vote counts equally, and the current climate was unfortunately not in your favor. Your day will come! In the meantime, reconsider your Coastopia. Do you really want to live in a place where everyone thinks/acts/believes/looks the same?

We live in Fairfax County, Virginia. We would like to apply for political asylum. We are renouncing our American citizenship and anxious to relocate in Coastopia whenever you launch your resettlement program. My wife and I prefer Seattle, my son prefers Boston. But when it comes down to it.....anywhere but here.

God Bless the American Coastopia! I'm in! Beats moving to Canada... :)

Please send a helicopter to pick up my roomate (from Oregon) and I (from Baltimore- hell yea RAVENS!)... We're still scratching our heads as to how we both wound up at Rice U. in Houston!!

Coastopia here we come!!

I've been talking about seceding all day! Wouldn't it be grand? Middle America doesn't deserve the beautiful Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges that are outside my door! I don't think they should even get to visit! Next time I see a southern tourist taking photos while I'm walking over the Brooklyn Bridge I'm going to kick them off! It's either Coastopia or I have to find out what's required to get a license to practice medicine in Canada. Coastopia could be neutral, like Switzerland, and full of all the best and most creative of our society!

I'm not sure what Laurie from Manly Dorm might be referring to as hate mongering (although I see that talking about secession is divisive), but I'd like to point out it's not hateful to say the Bush administration is antidemocratic, plutocratic and militarily adventuristic. These are subjective value judgments, but they are judgments that a reasonable person can reach based on the facts (as did perhaps a hundred million or so Americans and a billion or so foreigners). One can hate Bush and his administration while recognizing that his supporters simply are (not that we aren't all, but they in a way that's pertinent to this matter) deceived.

I loved (yes, past tense) the idea of Coastopia until I noticed that no one waxing rhapsodic about our next Nirvana decided to take on the racist interloper "shabiqwa" spewing off missives about the black people who will be sharing Coastopia as well. Maybe Coastopia isn't the promised land that it's purported to be--at least not if you're black like me. Thanks anyway.

I already live on the west coast in the state of Washington. We have plenty of rednecks here,can they be deported? I am attempting to flee to Victoria B.C.,apply for refugee status and leave this corporate fascist nation behind.

Somsone wrote: "Who is db and how did she get into Coastopia? We need a secret code."

...Well, any 'Coastopia' would have to tolerate dissent just the way United States of America does. Ya think?

The utopian feeling would last a day, and then a new conservative wing would grow from within. The blog entry was funny and wonderful and made a lot of good points. But of course, in real life, it wouldn't be so very simple. What we need to do is cut out a lot of the name-calling and rhetoric and look for common ground. Bombing babies and children in Iraq is awful, as someone said; yet, others believe killing 'babies' in clinics is awful. Of course, that all depends on where they believe life begins, and whether they're basing their assumptions on The Bible or just PRETENDING to take it from the Bible because they really believe 16-year-old girls who get pregnant deserved it.

I am an angry liberal, and I clench my fists every time I hear ignorance from the right, and from the right's more ignorant supporters. And yet, I don't want to become guilty of the same things they are. I loved the blog entry and I apologize for this long comment, but after reading all 71 I wanted to add that. We can tolerate dissent in Coastopia.

As a current senior at UNC who plans to move to LA after graduating I am safely nestled in American Coastopia and very, VERY proud to be. Thank you for such a wonderful new nation!

For now I'll have to content myself with keeping you Coastopians posted on goings-on in the Empire-formerly-known-as-the-United-States-of-America (EFKATUSA).

First, let me assure you that so far it's not as bad as some of us had feared. That rumor about all the liberals having to report to "re-education fun camps" is totally not true. We just have to go and register at the local Republican HQ. We're supposed to pack and bring a suitcase, for some reason. Aren't those Repubs a strange bunch?

Well, gotta run. I'll report more later! I hope.

I could not talk about what happened last night until later in the day today, but thank you for writing exactly what was going on in my mind. I knew there were racist and hateful jerks, just still had hope that they were not more than half of the US. Ohio deserves the poverty that is only going to grow in the next four years.

in oregon and washington, we should draw the border on the east side of the cascades to keep out the hicks. :D

oh god! please let madison, wisconsin in! we're nice and liberal, our congresswoman is a lesbian! kerry whopped bush with over twice the votes, despite the rest of the state's reluctance. don't make me live in old america.

To shabiqwa and his/her racist invective.
Listen, you jerk. I drove from NY to Ohio to be part of "Election Protection" and was assigned to a very black district. You say:
"not enough of the native ebonic-speaking population can get out of their escalades, and put down their bling-bling long enough to go and friggin' vote."

I had the privelege of helping a large number black people FIND the friggin voting place, which was in a building owned by a nasty (obviously Republican) white guy who tried to run us off (illegally) and pulled up our signs... which were, incidentally, the ONLY thing marking the polling place. I watched as black people, young, old, middle aged, found their way to that building, angry as hell at Bush, to cast their votes. They were an inspiration to me. Many were disabled and came on crutches, in wheel chairs, or limping, and at times they had to wait in line for a long time. Many of their names were not on the voter rolls, and some were given provisional ballots reluctantly. I was happy to be there, to hear their stories, to see their determination, to hear their complaints and try to help. I don't remember any of them wearing bling bling. One elderly black woman who I watched struggle two blocks on a cane (stopping to rest every few feet) to get to the polls would have been happy to get there in an escalade. It took her a full twenty minutes to negotiate that two blocks. When she got to where I was standing, I said, "Hi? Here to vote? Do you know where you need to go?"... and she smiled broadly and said "You BET I am, and yes, thank you, I know where to go. God bless."

So you potty mouth racist scum,... you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You insult and denigrate the good people I had the pleasure of meeting at that Ohio polling place. No wonder they are so pissed off at white America.

Cheesh....

So far ahead of you...

The broke up in 1991 and now the greatest band that ever lived is back with a new album - Camper Van Beethoven just released 'New Roman Times' in October.

It is a concept album of sorts - takes place in an alternate reality USA. The story is of a disenfranchised soldier from the Republic of Texas who moves to the Republic of California and joins a group of rebels known as the CVB.

Not to give away the ending, but he does blow up a disco.

http://www.campervanbeethoven.com

are you 51-7?

Ian's mom for president in 2008!!

You GO, girl!!

America just took a national IQ test . . . and failed miserably. We would be happy to initiate secession proceedings, and are also thrilled that Eugene is smack dab in the middle of Coastopia.

We can definitely dispense with a pledge of allegiance, but can we have an anthem? Any suggestions?

You guys are incredible. Keep posting, and read my thanks and update in the main blog:

http://www.xtcian.com/

...and please stick around!

Hmmmmm. You want to take "all the people that ever created everything beautiful. Yes, we're taking all the funny people too. All the sculptors, architects, surgeons, philosophers, violinists and fishermen."

Unfortunately for Coastopia, political beliefs have no monopoly on creativity; your net will cast widely to include an awful lot of "right-wingers."

Look closely at the maps. "Good" people everywhere, even those who do not agree with you. As Laurie of Manly Dorm notes, tolerance and diversity cut both ways. Learn to live in a diverse society with people who just might not agree with you.

Or not. Leave and abandon all right to participate in change.

I officially register with Coastopia, renouncing my citizenship in a country wildly out of touch with reality and humanity. Screw Them. And May God Have Mercy On Their Souls.

Yay!!! I already LIVE in Coastopia so I don't have to move. I fully support secession.

Economoc secession! That's where our power is. We need a Red State Boycott, or better, a Red County boycott. CNN has the "by county" results. We should identify the businesses based in the reddest counties and boycott them.

Your site has lifted me out of a deep funk and I thank you. Don't forget the Virgin Islands, they don't get to vote down there but they are true blue and don't want to get left behind!

Can I just stay where I am (Arkansas -- red state, but home of Bill Clinton, so it ain't all bad), but become a citizen of Coastopia and have diplomatic immunity? I'm prepared to spy and all. Seriously.

concept made my day, but hey some of my best friends are repubs--bless their hearts. . . .

Coastopia seriously rocks. Even though I am safely already within bounds, I do agree that we should vote in Madison, WI and its boundaries, Minnesota, Little Rock, Austin and Hawaii. I can vouch for 'em. We'll just have to move them around a bit. Oh, Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico? We should let them in too because that means they'll finally get some fair representation.

I find it interesting to be lectured by Laurie of Manly Dorm on tolerance and diversity as the US has elected the most intolerant administration we've seen in awhile. Odd, that. Not very self-aware. As a Christian and a Liberal, I am probably more sensitive to it, though.

P.S. Can we please mandate that we really uphold this separation between church and state thing in Coastopia? I'm getting a bit annoyed that the fundamentalist brethren would like to legislate how I am interpreting the Gospels. They are human and not divine, so I understand that they are fallible and all, but still. This Sojourner isn't down with that at all.

To the uptight meathead who wrote this:

Hmmmmm. You want to take "all the people that ever created everything beautiful. Yes, we're taking all the funny people too. All the sculptors, architects, surgeons, philosophers, violinists and fishermen."

Unfortunately for Coastopia, political beliefs have no monopoly on creativity; your net will cast widely to include an awful lot of "right-wingers."

Look closely at the maps. "Good" people everywhere, even those who do not agree with you. As Laurie of Manly Dorm notes, tolerance and diversity cut both ways. Learn to live in a diverse society with people who just might not agree with you.

Or not. Leave and abandon all right to participate in change.

*******************************

Ummm... I see you're quite unfamiliar with the concept of HUMOR!

Good grief! Some people...

Swinging a thurible like any progressive Anglo-Catholic, I am going to make a coast-to-coast (flying over the middle, obviously) procession with incense, grand music, and Alleluias for our brethren and sistren of the new America!!! And I am nominating the Fab Five as Secretaries of Homeland Good Taste. C'mon, you KNOW some of you need help!

And Canada is WAY too cold to move to, besides, my French isn't so hot...

I'm in a blue state, feeling really blue! If only we truly could make Coastal Utopia a reality! This morning, dropped son off at pre-school and had a mom come up to me and say, "Since the election is over, I just want to tell you that your campaign tactics (had my car windows painted with Bush facts for people to read) was tasteless and a lot of other moms agreed." Wimpy woman that she is, didn't have the guts to give her opinion until AFTER her candidate won and she felt righteous enough to voice this to me! I wrote a website down for her to get some facts, www.usccr.gov, which she crumbled and thru in the garbage; just like these people did with our country! Please come remove this ignorant woman to a red state and out of our utopia! Thanks.

What have they done?
They have the nerve to critize the religious fanatasism of Islam and others, yet they claim to vote on moral principles and issues. Since when did the constitution recend the separation of state and religion?
We must do what we can. Revolt and boycott,and not let one thing go by us! We will not and should not allow the perpetual scams and lies that allow for the deaths of our men and women at war abroad and the war we face here at home!
Enough!

COASTAL OR POSTAL!

Please take me too...I live in Moscow, Idaho. Yea, Idaho. The reddest state in the Empire of Merka. But there's a ton of us blue-bloods here in Moscow, and you know you don't want to leave an entire theatre department of artists behind.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. This has been the most bipolar week of my life. First I'm flying high above what used to be my whole country when the Sox win the Series, only to crash and burn when unemployed Midwestern assholes decide, "Hey, I know the folks at Halliburton need the jobs more than I do. I'm MUCH more concerned about queers getting health benefits. That's why I'm voting Bush."
I barely lived through Nixon and Reagan and I am sick of not having a country AGAIN. Let me know when you start making flags. I'll wave it beside my Red Sox Nation banner.

There have been much clamor for flags and bumper stickers, but the main motto of American Coastopia is that we don't believe in symbols of our country. I might make T-shirts with a map, however.

And yes, I imagine we'll run some Underground Railroads to places like Moscow, Idaho and Wash U. in Missouri. We care about our expats, y'know.

we all really should seced. stupid hillbillies... they are ruining it for the rest of us. VIVA American Coastopia!!

The sad reality of all this, is not only the monkey that was voted into office for another 4 years. But the baboon with the colorful ass that might follow. (JEB)

"BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!"

"WERE TO CAPTAIN?"

"COASTOPIA, SCOTTY, COASTOPIA."

I have wept my tears for America, but it is time to look forward. Thank the sweet Goddess, I live in Long Beach, California and embrace American Coastopia!!!Thank you for this site!

Count me in! I suggested something similar this morning to my partner! Except, we did win Washington, D.C., so it should be a part of Coastopia too. Besides, they don't deserve the White House and our beautiful capitol building. Let them make Crawford, TX their capitol. And, by the way, the Kennedy Center should be ours. They don't know what to do with it anyway. Also, we should hold all those in the Coastopian states who voted for the anti-christ, hostage and exchange them one for one for the good people trapped in the United States of Busherica. I am one of those. Please don't leave me here!!!!

Many emails asking for a T-shirt, so we made some:

http://www.cafepress.com/xtcian

Profits go to our local school system!

I live with all of the backward rednecks in Birmingham, AL but would love to secede with all of you!!!!!!!!!!

Come get me out of here! I do fully support Coastopia, and will gladly sign to write its Constitution/Laws/Procedures.

Are we ready to pledge our fortunes, our lives, our sacred honor?

jm said:
Oh, Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico? We should let them in too because that means they'll finally get some fair representation.

It should be noted that Puerto Rico voted in 1993 and 1998 NOT to try for statehood. What they lose in representation, they gain by not having to pay federal income tax (and possibly other benefits, too, I'm not sure). So before you go grabbing Puerto Rico, make sure they want to be here.

It's so hard to believe that all of the whiney hippies would be so bitter about that stiff, horsefaced communist, Frankenkerry, getting his ass tossed back into the useless liberal shitpile by the majority of this country.

"when unemployed Midwestern assholes decide..."

The only two education groups who voted for Kerry are those who have no schooling, and those who seemingly can't get enough of it ("No High School" and "Post Grad Study"). All others (high school grads, some-collegers, and college grads) voted for Bush. Of course, as a corollary, the people who put their post-grad study to use, and got high-paying jobs, voted for Bush more thoroughly than anyone else.

So whine away, demmies. Every time I walk out my building in downtown Manhattan, I will revel in your misery. And I rejoice in the fact that slacking losers, who have nothing better to do with their time than complain about issues of which they are entirely ignorant (and apparently suck cock and get knocked up), will have no control over our fine country.

"Ohio deserves the poverty that is only going to grow in the next four years." How hateful can you be. If this sentiment, this mean streak, runs through your promised land than thank you but no. It is more improtant than ever to try to work the system to unite the country, a simple-minded president is something that can be worked around and with people like Barac O'bama and others working diligently to make the country strong again and to fight against an overwhelming majority gives me reason to believe. Coastopia is a fallacy, a pipe dream. The reality is that this country needs a united front among the populace now more than ever.

db wrote:
"as long you democrats continue to look down your snooty noses at the rest of america, you will continue to lose ground in the USA. "

THANK YOU for pointing out the rampant elitism and snoberry on this site!

Maybe instead of whining, you all should get to know your country. Ever consider that we have allies in every state in this country who can be partners in helping us create change? You are a bunch of quitters (and quite offensive in your generalizations and name-calling).

Yaaaaaaaaayyyy! Four More Years of Compassionate Conservative moral values: Greed, Intolerance, Xenophobia, Fear, Bigotry!

I would emplore you to consider including Fairfax County, VA in your new collective, but I fear it's the pin holding the rest of my manure-infested backwater state up on the map. If you pull it out, the rest of the "Old Dumb Minion" might slide down and smother Chapel Hill.

Probably easier if I just move to Maryland ;)

Just remember what the happened last time states tried to secede. We'll stomp you out. But not before you're up in flames like Atlanta.

I'll start the proceedings for Saxapahaw to secede from Alamance County and officially become a western burb of Chapel Hill (which we are unofficially). American Coastopia! How delightful.

Thanks for including New Orleans. Though we've been a seperate third world country for as long as I can remember.

Pacifica Desires to Secede from Union
http://www.petitiononline.com/76616504/petition.html

Great idea - I am moving to Coastopia next month after wearily working to get out the vote in Florida. So sad.

When they reinstate the draft, it should start with those in the red states. I wonder if any friends of W's daughters will go?

And when abortion is illegal in America, will the wealthy with unwanted pregancies be welcome in to travel to Coastopia for help? What will happen to the poor American women?

And when there are no decent paying jobs in America, how will Coastopia handle the steady flow of immigrants - an exit interview on why they voted against their economic interests? A quick lesson on macroeconomics to be sure they don't vote against their interests in Coastopia?

thank you soooo much for this!

all day i've been thinking in terms of denying my citizenship as this is no longer a country that i am a part of. now i can forget that and be a citizen of coastopia.

About all I can say is "Here Here! and Thank God I'm in Durham, (and that they're going to move Duke the hell out of here. Although I do have some medical issues so can we keep the hospital?

Terrific! Can we include Moab Utah and Sundance (so we can ski and make/watch good movies too)? And our children can learn 3-4 languages in elementary school!--Laura in Utah

Can Northern Virginia be added to Coastopia? We tried hard as hell over here to get Kerry elected, believe me. Plus we have the Potomac leading right into the Chesapeake.

Wow, Northern Virginia has lobbied well. Consider it IN! But only Fairfax County and like-minded neighbors. No Manassas or Fredericksburg or anything.

There are two Americas today - Coastopia, and the rest of the country. There is a serious divide between the beliefs and interests of these sets of America, and there is no way to reconcile them. So why not decide to go our separate ways? The thing that holds a nation together is a common culture, and we find a nation today where people cannot understand each other, so the time has come for us to part.

It's better that way. Enough of this bickering, it's ineffective. And enough of the people who are saying, "let's move to Denmark!" This nation was something truly great, and I'm not going to give up on it. I'm proud to be American - not the America of today, but the real America, which is what I believe is the America of Coastopia.

might i suggest adding ann arbor, michigan? and charlottesville? i live in charlottesville (where kerry carried--or kerried), my husband lives in ann arbor, and i'd like to sleep tonight. for a change.

Dear Dimwits,

Although I know most of you have brains and are just screwin' around with this idea, some of you are actually still upset that "your country" is "going down the tubes".

These concepts are for you:

Not enough DEMOCRATS liked Kerry to get him into office.

Note enough SWING VOTERS liked Kerry to get him office.

Stop being devisive morons and thinking you, the minority, has not been heard. The electoral process showed that you were. You did not win. Your side "lost" for four years.

Stop bitching about, get a job, educate someone this weekend as to why the current ELECTED president ELECTED by the MAJORITY of people in the GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD is not the best guy for the job.

This will make sure that next time around it might happen that YOUR GUY GETS ELECTED.

Again: stop whining you bunch of cowards. Your whining did nothing for Kerry. Its not going to do anything now either except make you mad.

SO SHUT UP.

Norom- we're not whining, we're leaving.

Angela - there will be airlifts into both Ann Arbor and Charlottesville, don't worry.

I agree with Norom,

How many of you have jobs?

Yeah, thats absurd as well and offensive none-the-less. It is ridiculous to hear the arrogance of these, "city folk," and assuming that all people that consider themselves to be conservatives are oklahoma rednecks. The city of Denver (of which I currently reside) went for Bush and that is a large modern city, with a newer face than that of the big apple. These are supposed to be the people of diversity and acceptance I thought; the people that take a strong stance against prejudice; yet they waste no time generalizing a population of people that happens to disagree with their ideology. Just because the states on the electoral map were blue does not mean that they are far and large democratic states. Open up the county by county map for New York (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/NY/P/00/index.html), and you'll find that the state was for for the most part red. But when you have a large population confined to a space like NYC, it is inevitable that there will be somewhat of a consistent train of thought. A consistent train of thought does not automatically justify its viability. This is the same all over the country. Open up any county by county map in the country, including California, but with the obvious exception of Massachusettes (hows that for Coastopia?) you'll find the same thing. This is yet another example of ignorant, disgruntled people that can't accept the outcome of the election. We had to live under Clinton and his shenanigans for two terms, now we just have to wait for the democrats to put up Hillary in '08. But judging by the looks of their party right now, she won't stand a chance.

One more point, these "coastal" people are a culture obsessed with European fashion, obsessed with European art, obsessed with European automobiles, obsessed with European foods, and obsessed with European culture. Yet they are trying to say the rest of the country needs a lesson in being American?

Well, well. Republicans in here? I'm surprised at you! So much complaining! I thought you would be so happy that we're leaving and you can create your own country without any resistance at all.

I mean, we're happy! So get happy, Red States! You'll have quite a bit of the country all to yourselves pretty soon. Why so glum?

i have sent this link to all my fellow democrats here in utah - may we join you?

thank you for a good laugh in such a strange time.

It's 'divisive' you idiot -- the word you meant to use; it's spelled 'D-I-V-I-S-I-V-E'. Decisively, I'm sure.

Liberal Christian,

Here is the reason why you are a problem:

I AM A DEMOCRAT!

However, since I have a brain and look at the facts and understand that I have a civic duty to DO MY CIVIC DUTY then I accept that the person that was VOTED BY A CLEAR MAJORITY OF PEOPLE now has the job.
That is it.
No more complaining.
No more whining.
If you want to make jokes about how the rest of country doesn't think like you, then perhaps you are in the wrong country. If this concept is contrary to your state of mind, then you have to begin thinking once again like an American:

You are a part of the system, which is not perfect. DEAL WITH IT. Change it. Just stop complaining about it like a child whose toy was just given to her relatives kid the same age as you.

Stop WHINING.

Ohhhhh, big man, you caught a typo and you decided to point it out to me!

Thanks, buddy. You done good, today.

It's 'divisive' you idiot -- the word you meant to use; it's spelled 'D-I-V-I-S-I-V-E'. Decisively, I'm sure.

Posted by: norom-monger at November 4, 2004 02:48 PM

Thank you "O WISE AND CONCERNED ONES". Let San Francisco happily join in this exodus (I think it already has....many years ago), and in joining COASTOPIA.

There were 1,000 protesters at 5th and Market Street yesterday at 5pm blocking rush hour traffic and chanting "Fuck Bush and all of his policies". Some call this divisive. I call it heart-warming and beautiful.

We've discussed a million person march from SF to Canada (or Mexico- whichever is closer). Perhaps dueling marches. 1,000,000 leaving in both directions at the same time. why not? Let's organize....

You should not forget Santa Fe, NM. Santa Fe county is very very blue and wants to secede with you. We've got great culture, weather and environs!

Sweet, I'm in!

you forgot to include Hawai'i in your new country... we are a blue state and pretty much everyone here voted Kerry.

The Hawaiians most certainly want their own country - as they were dissed by the illegal overthrow of their soverign nation in the late 1800's - by who else? the (*@&#$(*& US of A(holes).

Please... bring us along too (or maybe you could put your new capitol conviently offshore on one of our beautiful islands).

ALOHA!

PS... for those of you who need some tranquility right about now... try www.TQworld.com

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out Jason, just so long as you realize that the state of California still belongs to the U.S. of A.

Nice post, Timothy Pryor. It amazes me how closed-minded and stereotypical these "cultural intellects" really are. Good riddance.

Actually KaneHau, 45% of the people didn't vote for Kerry there... ;)... but whose counting and paying attention to facts when... after all you're a liberal you don't have to...

PLEASE add Michigan to Coastopia!!! Michigan was a blue state! I am bi-coastal with houses in both L.A. and Detroit and I couldn't bear not having Michigan included in the master plan!!! We were blue...please add us!!!!!

Will you conservatives please play nice? What is it about us leaving you alone that threatens you so much?

Actually tim... those 45% are not hawaiians... or even kama'aina... they are stupid american haoles - more of the same breed of lieing murding assholes who overthrew the soverign nation to begin with.

But i guess that fine... when you back a lieing murderer for pRESIDENT - enjoy your fucked up country.

I thank Pele I'm 2,500 miles from land in all directions ESPECIALLY when looking east.

No aloha for you or your ilk

By your igorant standards, the 55% that did vote for Kerry aren't American then? hahaha... That's one of the obvious fallicies in your post. The rest is your tired, old, regurgitated, absolutely false lines pulled out of Michael Moore propaghanda. Try forming an opinion of your own and try to stray from the molding of liberal lunatics.

Ian, if you really want to leave us alone, move to France. Proposing to strip areas of our country is not necessarily leaving us alone. Calling us knuckle-dragging Wyomings is not leaving us alone. Moving to France, now thats leaving us alone, and largely encouraged.;)

Cool. Now the rest of us can get something done. It would be in everyone's best interest to build twenty foot walls around Coastopia to orevent any leakage into the rest of America.In addition,I would propose , that we enter into a trade agreement with Coastopia. You could sell us wine, software, and apples . We can sell you straight jackets.

Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand.
- Cardinal De Retz

why is it that on this site the most angry people are the republicans? they should be THRILLED that we want out.

Ian, you really can't say that rednecks in Oklahoma decided the the election...we only have 7 electoral votes (Wyoming has less).

Yes, the majority of people here are ultra-conservative republicans blinded by the WWJD (what would Jesus do?)frame of mind, BUT there are a few educated, liberal, artistic, creative, hilarious and fun-loving people here as well.

It pisses me off when "like-minded" indivuals give Oklahoma a bad rap. In fact, the people who are born and raised in a "Bush-state-of-mind" who are lucky enough to rise from all the rubbish should be applauded!

It's a tough red-dirt road to walk...'round these parts bein' liberal is like bein' a devil-worshiping homosexual...and that's bad! Few us walk tall and proud!

i'm with KaneHau-please include hawaii in coastopia. we tried. pls. print new edition t-shirt that includes us. are coastopia residents subject to draft? i'm already researching draft extradition countries because my 18 yr old will NOT be drafted. these are dark days. but at least i will get to watch chapel hill baskball!!! mahalo for that! they'll be on maui in about 2 wks.
imua coastopia. who needs the rest of it!

No, wanting out is not the same as a proposal to strip states from the union. You want coastopia? Find a remote island not belonging to the USA. Until then, shut up and accept the results of democracy.

Nan wrote...

***why is it that on this site the most angry people are the republicans? they should be THRILLED that we want out.***

Because then they would have nobody to hate. They have to have someone to hate... be it gays, or liberals, or educated people, or scientists.

Same goes for war... cold war is over so let's pick a country to hate regardless of the fact that they did nothing to us (that's right people, even BUSH admited that 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq).

Fed up with bigots. Fed up with people with their imaginary friends (e.g., My god is better than your god). Fuck... I've got a 6 foot invisible rabbit named Harvey that would beat any of the so called 'christian' god(s).

So yes... let the lieing bigots have their little country - but without all the things they like to bitch about. We will all be much happier.

why is tim (and the other conservatives here) so angry and mean? i thought conservatives were 'compassionate'. lol.

michigan would like to join, as stated before.

the next 4 years will suck...

i don't think tim's getting it. in this post we are declaring a desire to officially secede from the union. that means staying put but refusing to follow the laws of the nation we secede from.

for reference, see map.

PLEASE TAKE US WITH YOU... WE REALLY WERE HOPING KERRY WOULD WIN, AND CLEAN UP THIS MESS FOR US. BESIDES, WE'VE ALREADY MADE ENOUGH MONEY FROM ALL THIS. W AND I ARE LOOKING FOR SOMEPLACE EXOTIC TO RETIRE TO IN THE NEXT 4 YEARS AND COASTOPIA SURE SOUNDS NICE.

WE PROMISE TO WORK HARD AND BE HUMBLE.

PLEASE TAKE US WITH YOU... WE REALLY WERE HOPING KERRY WOULD WIN, AND CLEAN UP THIS MESS FOR US. BESIDES, WE'VE ALREADY MADE ENOUGH MONEY FROM ALL THIS. W AND I ARE LOOKING FOR SOMEPLACE EXOTIC TO RETIRE TO IN THE NEXT 4 YEARS AND COASTOPIA SURE SOUNDS NICE.

WE PROMISE TO WORK HARD AND BE HUMBLE.

Why don't you just move to Canada you stupid fuckers. WE won and WE will rule this country as we please you stupid pieces of shit.

Thank God our forefathers were stronger souls than the lot of you. That being said, I encourage you to follow your dream, with one catch.

Get the fuck off of our soil. You can't have it, and you'll die trying to keep it.

God Bless America!!!

You just have to have the last word don't you.
Let's play 'Red'Rover instead; Gordon (not Lightfoot) Shumway, moron/norom, the likely tiny Tim, anybody else who I missed, and GTFOut are all on the red team and Ian's mom will captain the lot of us here on the Fuck You Blue Crew. Or let's have field day. We'll share our snacks and you guys can charge admission.

This BlogCommentaThon is longer than the Happy Days dance marathon. The Fonz will not fall....

Lisa, Slappy - Michigan was only a blue state because of the amount of voters in Wayne county, and the exception of eight other counties.

I think I'll immigrate to Coastopia via the airlift to Ann Arbor. I live in Chippewa County, and I think they're passing motions for Liberals to be included as game in deer season. ;)

No, we definitely want the great lakes, the largest freshwater resevoir in the world. I'd like to suggest a motion that we draft Michigan and Wisconsin.

Hail, Hail Coastopia! Land of the Brave and Blue!

LIGHTEN UP YOU GUYS........THIS IS STARTING TO GET A LITTLE NASTY.

Include Michigan too. The people are cool and we'll need the fresh water.

ps Enjoying diversity does not mean you have to accept stupidity.

Oh, how delighted was I to see that, as Chicagoans, my husband and daughter and I and everyone we love are already part of American Coastopia. I've already ordered the t-shirt...
Let me tell you,the one bright spot in the TV coverage of Election Day was seeing our lone li'l blue state in the middle of the country. And hey -- how about Barack Obama for American Coastopia president?

Depressing - just downright depressing!

The real beauty of Coastopia is that we Coastopians are everywhere.

We make up about 48% of current US Americans, in fact.

Because you don't have to live in Coastopia to BE a Coastopian.

We're Everywhere.

Each one of us is a Cool Blue patch in this angry sea of Red.

My whole neighborhood is Blue. In fact, even in this Red town, in this Red state, lots of neighborhoods are Blue, and there are plenty of us Blue Coastopians even in the Red neighborhoods.

44% of North Carolinians are Coastopian!

Why, even Texas is 38% Coastopian (howdy, fellers!).

We're all over the place, and we're not going anywhere.

We're everywhere, and although we're disappointed in the way things turned out this time around, we're going to stay put and keep working.

We'll work to expand Coastopia day by day. We'll demonstrate that justice, kindness, generosity and tolerance--not Force--are the roots of a strong society.

When those Red folks see the light, they'll be welcome, too.

Long Live Coastopia!

COASTOPIA IS MY ONLY HOPE. I thank you sooo incredibly much for organizing this land of the free. You have truely made my life.

Democracy schmocracy ... do you think the original American Revolutionaries took a vote and said "Gee, if we lose this vote we really shouldn't secede from this oppressive monarchical regime"? Nope ... they got off their asses and said "We're outta here."

Count me in, Coastopia. Home sweet home. And we'll have such nice neighbors with Canada and the United States of Europe ... it will be refreshing to have civilized conversation as we make sure everyone has health care, a warm safe place to sleep, and a reasonable chance of getting paid a living wage for a productive job.

Okay, ha, yes, this is a funny concept and helps us disappointed voters all smirk for a moment - Lord knows we could use it. Unfortunately, most of the original manifesto contains clues to the widening phenomenon of the Dem's failure, and plays perfectly into the stereotype of Democrats as elitists, as some here have pointed out. Though he was clearly a better man for the job in almost every way, Kerry is an ineffective politician who failed to connect in a visceral, emotional way with swing voters and the average joe. We can complain about it and play our narrowing part as The Losers Who Took The High Road, or we can wake up, get smart, learn from it, and motivate.

The most relevant and astute posting here remains the one from db: "as long you democrats continue to look down your snooty noses at the rest of america, you will continue to lose ground in the USA. best of luck with USofC and enjoy your latte." F___in' A, Bubba! You hear that, Democrats and Progressives? You may be the better party for the working class, for minorities, for probably the greatest good for the greatest number of Americans, but these Americans won't know it if you can't connect with them.

Yes, this is a humor site, but the text and many postings on this site of 'progressive humor' exhibit damning clues as to why we're in this mess, and why we'll now be in it for another four years.

The idea of several states banding together and quitting the United States because they do not like the outcome of a presidential election is not new. It was tried once before -- in 1860. The people who seceded then felt every bit as righteous in their cause, superior in their intellect, and contemptuous of their opponents as the folks posting on this board. They made the made the same haughty renunciations of the United States. Like today's would-be secessionists, they even claimed to have supporters in Europe. In they end, their rashness led to the bloodiest war in the history of the Western Hemisphere, with roughly 1 million Americans killed.

thanks for the post. I already live here in New Jersey and am now a citizen of American Coastopia....maybe we could become part of the E.U. somehow...even though we're not in Europe.

Hey, I hear the world community is ready to give recognition to Coastopia, and it will then replace Old America at the UN (the Red states didn't want to be there anyway).

Folks are happy in Coastopia, so of course Republican posters try to make them miserable. They picked Red King George, and now they hate themselves.

Luke says, "The most relevant and astute posting here remains the one from db: "as long you democrats continue to look down your snooty noses at the rest of america, you will continue to lose ground in the USA.

Yes, I can see that db wants Democrats to be more politically correct. OTOH, Coastopians don't do Bush pep rallies.

Ive been dreaming up a place like this alot in the last few days, and someone really had a good idea! Im smiling for the future which I didin't think I would be doing in awhile. Long live Coastopia! It is, in every way, a beautiful place!

mein gott! this has gotten ugly... but really, just sad. the intolerance of the red-oriented commentors on this site is tantamount really to one thing: fear. although i love A.C and would proudly be a citizen, i think the key to keeping our united states united, would be a world wide exchange program. send kids from oklahoma to new york city, kids from door county, wi to miami, people from seattle to birmingham, alabama. and once we all grow a little more tolerant* of each other, we send everyone out to another country. we send christians to mosques, muslims to temple, buddhists.. well, nevermind. they're fine the way they are. we send americans to the middle east, belgians to congo, russians to chechnya, israelis to ramullah.
as James Peacock, UNC anthropology professor extraordinaire used to say.. people don't realize it but anthropology is going to save the world. once you understand another, fear subsides.
*tolerant does not include acceptance of descrimination based on religion, race, sexual preference, et al.

Yes, I agree with Luke. The conservatives aren't the only ones getting nasty here.

To conservatives: Not every Dem is so rigid or culturally hip and wants to secede. I'm a liberal and I want to hear what you're thinking. BUT nor do I want to tolerate ignorance and hatred toward any group, particularly if you have not walked in their shoes. Gays didn't "choose" their lifestyle; if they did, then Dick Cheney's daughter wouldnta been gay - and that's why Kerry brought that up. I'm willing to listen to your arguments if you're willing to listen to ours.

If we are against hatred and prejudice, it has to work both ways. I will NOT tolerate gay-bashing, and I will not tolerate Oklahoma-bashing, either. I will tolerate, say, people who are loving and open-minded and are willing to continue a dialogue.

And I don't want the thinkers and funny people to leave America. Please stay a while and keep making this country great.

Clinton got elected somehow, remember?

Some of these comments are starting to sound like, "Hey, you Fucking conservatives, stop fucking being so fucking nasty." It goes both ways. Play nice.

What we're really beginning to see is that a fairly large percentage of Democrats are unable to acknowledge that their agenda is out of touch with the majority of Americans. They continue to parrot old tired platitudes and lies that have gotten them to the position they are in now. This truly was a resounding defeat. And, when considering the huge waste of time on such nonsense as "American Coastopia", they still don't have a clue.

The results are clear. Democrats/Liberals do not connect with the mainstream of America. The real shocking thing is that they actually think they ARE the mainstream of America. Until they learn that lesson we will see more erosion of their base. Until they find a credible leader with a credible platform and vision to campaign from, that will be good news for the Republicans as well as the country.

Koke, there are lies on both sides. "mainstream america" has a fair amount of prejudice and fear and has not come up with a plan to protect ourselves from terrorism, nor to help those who truly need the help (which is SUPPOSED to be the true Christian ideal. people who are suffering, often the homeless and mentally ill, need help, not excuses and your platitudes about how they deserve it.)

Some of us liberals DO want to understand where you're coming from, but ignorance from either side makes me fed up, and it's the ignorance and hate caused by some of your friends that pushed a few of my fellow Dems to the edge.

Hi there! So, I was thinking, can Austin, Texas join, too? You see, we are the crazy liberal hold out of Texas. You know how when you go to another country and tell the people there you're American, they kind of judge you even though you may be a really cool person? That's the way it is with Texas and going to other states. Austin is this cool, crazy, liberal, artsy town that gets lumped in with the rest of Texas, when frankly, it isn't like the rest at all.
I mean, Tom DeLay and the rest of the crazy conservatives would have to vacate the capitol, but really, it sucks to be them. It was they who gerrymandered the congressional districts so that Austin was divided into three different districts that each combined with a larger, conservative district so that Austin's liberal politcal scene and representation in the national and state congress was virtually destroyed. Drawing the lines where people live, my ass.

Thank God for American Coastopia. Thanks God I am not face to face with the idiot repeating the "out of touch with mainstream America" crap.

Yes, one day of despair was enough. I do hope there's no god in Coastopia, although anyone who wants to imagine one will be free to do so as always. I'm in (and hey, I already live in Queens). Saw the Towers fall, then saw concrete barriers at the Six Flags St. Louis, like who the hell is going to blow them up? They get off on thinking Osama's coming after them in Natchez. He can have them.

Alf - Thanks for the response and appreciate your points. I agree there are lies on both sides of the spectrum. The political environment is rife with the speculative suggestions of manipulating predators who make the ignorant their prey.

I happen to believe that in 2004 this has been far more prevalent on the Liberal/Democrat side of the equation and I would expect that any level-headed reasonably educated person can see this.

You made some statements in your post. Specifically about terrorism and the needy.

Terrorism
---------
I don't understand how you can say there is no plan to "protect ourselves from terrorism". The fact's render that statement false.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Patriot Act, Homeland Security, International Law Enforcement cooperation in Intelligence gathering/sharing, Political Pressure, Financial seizure, etc..

The terrorism we see today is the product of decades of neglect, abuse and disregard of millions of people in the Mid-East - by both the U.S. and the rest of the World. The catalyst was religious fanaticism.

What took years to create will take years to destroy. My guess is at least 1 or 2 generations.

Domestic security will hopefully obstruct most contemplated attacks here but I don't believe there can be total security regardless who is in the White House.

There is NO QUICK FIX. Dreams won't help.

The fact is that the Kerry Plan was/is the Bush Plan with some minor changes to some minor details...and a huge dose of hype.

The Needy
---------
This may sound callous, but it is nothing new and it is certainly something that The Democrats have harped on since the beginning of time but never solved in any of their 40 years in the White House since FDR.

This a social issue that is secondary to life everywhere, worldwide. It is also a political topic that really only becomes "publicly obvious" every 4 years. Why is that? Simple - Votes. How insincere! How true!

Nonetheless, it is a fact of life. How much have you traveled? Been to Africa? Middle-East? South America? India?

To anyone living in Liberal Utopia, I would suggest they travel outside of any Western Society and learn about life in the real world.

These Western Societies have prospered and they have also thrown billions of dollars at poverty worldwide. But, the poverty continues.

What's the solution? More billions? Education? Freedom? Liberty?

Here in the U.S., we've also thrown billions at the problem but it's still there! What's the solution? (By the way, just to put things in perspective, those living in poverty in any of the countries listed above would jump at the opportunity to "live in poverty" in the U.S.)

In summary, give the poor & needy the opportunity to be educated and employed. If they're mentally or physically incapable of education and/or employment, we should take care of them.

(Side Note: NYC/Giuliani started a program for the homeless in the 90's. They went out and picked up the homeless and gave them shelter and opportunity for public employment. Many benefited from the program but some preferred to live on the street. His administration then did psychological evaluations on them. Those that were found mentally competent were allowed to return to their "homelessness". Those that weren't were institutionalized until the ACLU got many of them back on the street. How's that for compassion?)

Pleased to carry on the discussion.

Have a good one.

/koke

I just want to know, how do we go about making this possible?

You have to include all the blue states...MN, MI, WI to make it a true approach.

This blog sure has taken a turn for the terrifying. Ian, thanks for giving us hope. Durham wants in. We'll bring the beer.

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.

- Julius Caesar

Coastopia here I come!

I was considering filing for political asylum in France, but this is much better. I would like a country where debate is welcome and respect for others' opinions if taken for granted. Now we just find ourselves studying our reflection in the mirror and wonder "why are we moraly inferior?" Because we are open-minded? tolerant?

Please!

quit your whining. We dont have enough tissues for all of you. get over it.

my 22nd birthday was november 2, 2004. election day. i asked for one thing for my birthday. to not be a party to another 4 years of dubya. to be a party to freedom, equality, and the *real* american way. i can't find that now in the good old U S of A. i CAN find it in american coastopia...

allow me my birthday wish... and welcome to AMERICAN COASTOPIA.

I'am from Georgia. Decatur, GA to be exact. I know that we have Zell from hell and a bunch of other boot lickers of his ilk but please let us in to Coastopia. We don't want to be left alone with the nuckle draggers, bible belt crazies and Nazies. By the way, some German friends of ours say Bush is doing many of the same things that Hitler did. My greatest worry is that I may not live long enought to see all this horrow reversed. On the positive side I can't help but feel fortunite to be part of a group that loves and cares. May peace be with you every day.

Paul

The consensus among the conservative commenters here seems to be "Dissenting, critical commentary = Whining."

Somehow, Rush Limbaugh springs to mind. Bill O'Reilly. Ann, um, COULter, kind of just LEAPS to the forefront of my thoughts rights now.

there are only two of us on this republican retirement isle in savannah ga. our boat will be ready soon ...

I have no problem with dissent or commentary, but ignorance is just pathetic. You do realize that California adopted a constitutional ban on same sex marriage, don't you? Long before the current wave. Your precious Western Coastopia is not much different than the knuckle-dragging heartland you hold in such comfortable contempt.

Let me sum it up for everyone (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) This is all about "legislating lifestyle."

Both sides can stereotype each other and complain all they want (as this blog demonstrates). I understand perfectly why mostly white "Christians" are feeling overwhelmed by the secular society and everyone else, having been "top dog" in this country since its' inception.

But guess what, conservatives: there are no LAWS forcing you to watch the "liberal" media on TV, own a computer with the Internet and all its' "evil" shenanigans like this blog, go to those movies made by Hollywood "liberals," and invite gay and minority folks over to your house for dinner.

Yet that is exactly what Christian conservatives want to do. They want to enact their morality into LAW and force it down everyone else's throat.

And that's the difference, good bloggers. It's about LAWS, stupid!

It wasn't Coastopians--who, in case you haven't realized it yet, are not literally people residing in coastal states, but people who view the (regrettably) current administration as mistaken and wrong--who voted to ban same-sex marriage.

You DO know that, don't you?

...don't you?

There are only two possible explanations for the outcome of this election:

1. The REAL majority really did speak, and that majority REALLY is as conservative as this snapshot indicates.

Or

2. The liberal establishment just plain failed to mobilize every vote that it could.

Obviously, the outcome is likely a result of a mixture of both; but as a self-proclaimed progressive, I want desperately to believe the latter, because if the former is true, this does not bode well for the future of our great democracy.

No matter how you spin it, discriminatory, homophobic paranoia is antithetical to the concept of equality. Exclusionary, evangelical demagoguery is immoral in a pluralistic society. Unrestrained, voracious consumerism fueled by exploitive Third World labor is immoral. Putting profit before the protection of our environment is immoral. Mortgaging our children’s futures to throw a kegger for ourselves today is immoral. Condemning the atrocities of the Palestinian authority while complicitly turning a blind eye to the abuses of the Israeli government and secret service is both hypocritical AND immoral. These are the bedrock of the GOP platform. These are the values that “Mainstream America” (if indeed it was fully represented last Tuesday) considers more important than fostering a better view of the United States throughout the world.

Chock one up for isolationism. Tally one for xenophobic unilateralists and narrow-minded intolerance.

But while we’re all pulling our hair out over who is the more “Moral” of the two parties, everyone seems to be forgetting one critical point, and I cling to it as the last best hope for equality: The only thing we know from the results of the election is the relative moral values of those who BOTHERED TO VOTE.

When all the smoke clears, I remain confident that this loss will come down to a failure on the part of Democrats to turn out every last vote in their arsenal, and their shortfall will be larger than the GOP's. God help you spineless, apathetic fuckers who left us standing with our dicks in the wind. Those of you who didn’t vote and plan to spend this term crying in your lattes can thank yourselves.

Annie -

your quote: "The consensus among the conservative commenters here seems to be "Dissenting, critical commentary = Whining."

Actually, a lot of this thread includes hateful, judgmental, bigoted comments about people that are different than Liberal Democrats, i.e. "Republicans", "Red-Sates", "Conservatives", "Kunckle Draggers", etc.
So, officially, it is not 'dissenting, critical, commentary'. It is childish, insensitive and ignorant posturing.

your other quote: "Somehow, Rush Limbaugh springs to mind. Bill O'Reilly. Ann, um, COULter, kind of just LEAPS to the forefront of my thoughts rights now."

Actually these 2 people have one vote each -- just like you, although they can persuade other people to vote "their" way. Since they have their counterparts, Michael Moore, Stuart Smally, etc, this is really no argument.

p.s. Michael Moore with his "documentary" that spelled out "the truth" could not even persuade people to change their vote.

/Norom

Please reconsider the bumper sticker issue ... I'd put it right next to my Kerry/Edwards sticker, which isn't coming off any time soon.

Oh thankfully I reside in Coastopia (RI)! I still feel sick from the outcome of this election, and I am trying my best to cope with the mourning process we all share in the face of an administration that has lied to the american people repeatedly. Let's review the fantastic record of GWB: A failed mission to capture the real source of 9/11, A rising death toll of US Servicemen/Women in Iraq,Haliburton favortism,Destroyed diplomatic relations throughout the world,Rising national debt, Enviromental destruction,No child left behind(yeah right),National health plan(none yet),No equal rights for the gays(sounds like outright descrimination to me),Possible cuts of pensions for Active duty & Retired Armed forces(can't see why anyone would not want to enlist! hmmm),Homeland security(except the woman I saw with huge knitting needles on a South West flight), Outsourced jobs(call your local cable company, talk to INDIA). So to all of you who voted for another four years of all of the above mentioned success, I suggest you all sit in a circle with GWB, and read My Pet Goat, while we all watch our country go down the toilet.The story went over well with the kids in a Florida Classroom, while the President let our country come under seige.

"Why don't you just move to Canada you stupid fuckers. WE won and WE will rule this country as we please you stupid pieces of shit."

Posted by: Gordon Shumway at November 4, 2004 05:32 PM

Thank you Gordon for your insightful rhetoric. I have a better idea. Why don't you just go to sean hannity's website and blog away there? This post is not the place to spread your hatred, but as the ambassador for hate, I believe Sean would welcome your comments.

On a lighter note, I live in Kansas and am Catholic. I'm currently drowning in this sea of red. If it weren't for my family, I'd be outta here. As it is, I will continue to toil away and shape young minds to listen to BOTH sides of argument before making up their mind.

Call it "La Resistance" except I'm not in France during WWII and the christian coalition isn't the nazi's....or are they?

I'm building a summer home in coastopia.

Help! I'm trapped in the middle of the non-Coastopia hell! I feel like I'm being oppressed! I think your great nation needs some Rocky Mountains in it - how about adding the metro areas of Denver-Boulder. I'm mortifed we went for Shrub, but can we at least get some credit for elected two democratic hispanic brothers to the senate and congress?????

All coastopian are welcome in Eeurope! France, Germany, and many others. Please skip italy and its fascit Berlusconi leader who said it was great to have Bush for President for 4 extra years.

Gordon Shumway.
I have arranged for your non-stop,
oneway trip to ASSTOPIA, where all of you right
wing, conservative, shrublovers belong. Complimentary beverages and exlax await your arrival.....

Dear Colleen:
Please allow me to articulate your thoughts a little better:

"Let's review the fantastic record of GWB: A failed mission to capture the real source of 9/11"
Um, if you bothered to read ALL the news, you might see that people in the mountainous regions of Afganistan and Pakistan really don't like people coming in and screwing around. They don't want to be involved in other people's back yards and don't want a war in their back yard.

"A rising death toll of US Servicemen/Women in Iraq"
Yes, this happens in war. Did you know there were 42,000 people killed on US highways last year?

"Haliburton favortism"
All politicians are corrupt. Live with it, accept it. Your guy, my guy, their guy. Politics is big business for all parties and don't be naive to think anything less.

"Destroyed diplomatic relations throughout the world"
Where? Who? What? I mean, huh?!?
What exactly does this mean? No one wants to trade with us anymore? Nobody in every third world and most first world countries don't want to come here anymore?
Face the facts: The newly gathered EU faced a huge political problem in front of the UN: They knew France and Russia were involved in shady arms and money deals in Iraq during the food for oil program. They decided to save face instead of telling the truth. Thus, "the world hates the US".
Whatever. They know they're just saying it because we got our asses kicked once and now they feel like they have a leg to stand on.

"Rising national debt"
Yes, this concerns me in a very real way, but the debt is not entirely Bush's fault. We'll see in another year.

"Enviromental destruction"
Blame SUV owners. The population of V8s and V10s in this country that eat gas comes from both parties. That's right: all members of political parties drive horrible cars and want cheap gas. How do you get cheap gas and not go overseas for it? YOU DRILL IN YOUR OWN BACKYARD!

"No child left behind(yeah right)"
Yes, not working too well. But its a format that still might work. I think its the wrong strategy, but I'm not president.

"National health plan(none yet)"
Paid for by whom? Not me thanks. I want to know that the money I pay to the government pays my health plan, not scum sucking parasites. Rule #1: never give out fish, only teach how to fish.

"No equal rights for the gays(sounds like outright descrimination to me)"
Is this about marriage? No one has bothered to make this a financial fight, so everyone just picks at the bones of the bible's idea of right and wrong. Unfortunately, there is a lot of money tied into "marriage". Remember, its not just a ceremonial love contract: it's a legal contract.

"Possible cuts of pensions for Active duty & Retired Armed forces(can't see why anyone would not want to enlist! hmmm)"
I don't understand the rationale either, and won't comment on it until I do.

"Homeland security(except the woman I saw with huge knitting needles on a South West flight)"
Say, how many bombings have you heard about in the last 3 years in the continental US? Hmmmm. NONE.

"Outsourced jobs(call your local cable company, talk to INDIA)"
Sorry to say this and burst your bubble, but Clinton started this. It is most certainly NOT his fault, but it began during his reign. America is about making money. We make more money if we can get the job done cheaper. That is why all your products are made in different countries. And you complain that jobs are going overseas? Lady, they were gone a looooong time ago. You just keep buying Made in China/Taiwan/Japan/Malaysia/Turkey/etc/etc/etc and keep complaining about something you are directly responsible for.

"So to all of you who voted for another four years of all of the above mentioned success, I suggest you all sit in a circle with GWB, and read My Pet Goat, while we all watch our country go down the toilet"
The country is NOT going down the toilet. You would be surprised to know that I am a small business owner, and 5 of my good friends are small business owners. Strangely, although the "country is going down the toilet", our profits are up and most of us are hiring. Intesting, isn't it?

"The story went over well with the kids in a Florida Classroom, while the President let our country come under seige"
Stop quoting Michael Moore and start thinking for yourself. You don't move the move POTUS until you know what's going on. He was safe at that moment. People were trying to kill him. If you are suggesting that it was his fault that we were attacked, you already know it was not. This story goes back decades and is the usual foreign policy gone bad. If you actually feel the need to blame someone, blame Clinton for not taking the guy out (although, on the other hand, you can't blame him either).

-Norom

I don't know what to say, because I just don't understand how so many people in this country can be so ignorant and backward-thinking. It is disgusting and embarrassing because we had a chance to change for the better and some people did not take advantage of it.

The following, from "Norom"'s (perhaps just that first "eman" by itself suits him better) initial entry into the Comments section:

"Dear Dimwits"

"Stop being devisive [sic] morons"

"stop whining you bunch of cowards"

"SO SHUT UP."

Does this sound to anybody rather like the "childish, insensitive and ignorant posturing" which Norom condemns (ironically) as the bane of this site? Does it remind anybody of, say, Bill O'Reilly? Rush Limbaugh? Ann Coulter, perhaps?

Not to mention Gordon Shumway, and ho-ho (the Confederate-flag-waver who threatened violence. Nice.)

Incidentally, "Norom" missed my point--I don't think I was making an argument about how many votes Rush Limbaugh has (and Rush, Bill, and Ann add up to 3 people/votes, not 2. Incidentally) Rather, I was pointing out that many conservative commenters in this section have equated liberal dissent and criticism with whining. I don't see how they have explained that point specifically. What makes our expressions grief and outrage "whining," and Bill O'Reilly's red-faced screaming something else?

Many posters on this site, even some of the conservative-leaning ones, have made arguments with points, in attempts to clarify their views. Honestly, I would welcome a conversation with a conservative who could help me understand what "moral values," which is a nonspecific and redundant term, is actually supposed to mean. I would really like to know.

Of course I'm enraged and sad, and I am sickened to the core that B**h will be responsible for several more thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of Iraqi AND American deaths before it's all over. And if expressing that rage and grief to my friends all over this country is "whining," well, I'll fucking whine if I want to.

To all Coastopians : if the hateful Bushericans won't let you live on your own, please feel free to move to France where I'm from or to Greece where I live now. We'd be glad to exchange some of our stupid politicians for distressed former Americans.
Or try and follow Bush's morals : make lots of babies, their vote will make the difference one day.
Please make sure YOUR opinion is known abroad : the world needs to know Americans are not all lunatics... By the way, any clue about Bush invading France to get our cheese ? (sorry, I meant to free the oppressed French people ruled by a cruel leader.....)So lucky, we haven't got oil !!!!

Dear Retah(d),

Allow me to retort:

>>"A rising death toll of US Servicemen/Women in Iraq"
>Yes, this happens in war. Did you know there were 42,000 people killed on US highways last year?

But the deaths in Iraq - over 1000 soldiers, perhaps 100,000 mostly civilian Iraqis, was entirely preventable.

>>"Haliburton favortism"
>All politicians are corrupt. Live with it, accept it. Your guy, my guy, their guy. Politics is big business for all parties and don't be naive to think anything less.

This is a cynical argument that only encourages more bad behavior. "They're all corrupt, so let's not worry about corruption." It also misses the point - Halliburton's ties with Cheney have reaped it billions for private security, which could be better spent on armor for real soldiers and their vehicles. How do you think $80,000 adventurers paid with our money makes our true servicemen and women feel??

>>"Destroyed diplomatic relations throughout the world"
>Where? Who? What? I mean, huh?!?
What exactly does this mean? No one wants to trade with us anymore? Nobody in every third world and most first world countries don't want to come here anymore?
Face the facts: The newly gathered EU faced a huge political problem in front of the UN: They knew France and Russia were involved in shady arms and money deals in Iraq during the food for oil program. They decided to save face instead of telling the truth. Thus, "the world hates the US".
Whatever. They know they're just saying it because we got our asses kicked once and now they feel like they have a leg to stand on.

If you read the NEWS, you'll see that many nations will be investing less in the US because of our arrogant unilateralism. The foreign nations and banks that service our national debt (another Bush problem, see below) may be more reluctant to extend more credit.

American companies were also involved in arms (1980s) and oil deals (1990s), but privacy laws blacked out their names.

Besides, it's not just France and Russia, but Latin America, all the Arab countries, all of Asia, etc. While you talk governments, know that the people in those countries deeply opposed the war. Even those where the government that supported us (Spain, Italy, Great Britain).

>>"Rising national debt"
>Yes, this concerns me in a very real way, but the debt is not entirely Bush's fault. We'll see in another year.

I think we can hold him responsible for, oh, $680 billion plus the amount of the other tax cuts...

>>"Enviromental destruction"
>Blame SUV owners. The population of V8s and V10s in this country that eat gas comes from both parties. That's right: all members of political parties drive horrible cars and want cheap gas. How do you get cheap gas and not go overseas for it? YOU DRILL IN YOUR OWN BACKYARD!

That's silly - your solution purports to solve the cost of oil but doesn't do anything about environmental destruction. Oil is only one small part of the problem. Healthy Forests Destruction Initiative. Failure to deal with Global Warming (electricity conservation, carbon tax). Arsenic, mercury, PCBs - he's not doing a thing about it. Christie Whitman resigned from the EPA out of frustration.

Well, I don't wanna waste any more breath on this guy. Go Coastopia!

If Al Jeezera posts the Red states I offer up Arizona for wipe out. These McCain worshipping, Bush loving, redneck, morons won't change. We mobilized record numbers of democrats and they still raised the margin of victory for Bush/Cheney.

I'm moving to Massachusetts (Capitol of Coastopia?) anyway. Until then, though, I will continue to fight against the neofascist radcons in the Whitehouse.

And now, some words from our original sponsors:

On the danger of "character" as the #1 issue:

"I sincerely wish we could see our government so secured as to depend less on the character of the person in whose hands it is trusted. Bad men will sometimes get in and with such an immense patronage may make great progress in corrupting the public mind and principles. This is a subject with which wisdom and patriotism should be occupied." --Thomas Jefferson to Moses
Robinson, 1801.

On why the separation of church from state is fundamental to good government:

"The real friends of the Constitution in its federal form, if they wish it to be immortal, should be attentive, by amendments, to make it keep pace with the advance of the age in science and experience. Instead of this, the European governments have resisted reformation, until the people, seeing no other resource, undertake it themselves by force, their only weapon, and work it out through blood, desolation and long-continued anarchy."
--Thomas Jefferson to Robert J. Garnett, 1824.

On why Jefferson would join Coastopia:

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience [has] shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:429

Long live COASTOPIA!! Thanks so much for the smile - and inspiration to keep fighting the good fight. : )

Oh, and PLEASE can Alexandria, VA be included? 67% for Kerry, we're very diverse, we ride the metro and recycle, have great bike paths, cool art studios, most of my neighborhood works for the EPA, we've got some great founding fathers heritage and a beautiful waterfront...please, please? Don't leave us out!!

This has made it almost to the top.

I just received this message from someone that I forwarded it to:

I forwarded this on to a few former dem hill staffers, and one forwarded it to Hillary's LD. She LOVED this! Do you know where this originated? That person might be able to meet with Hillary!!! (Clinton, that is)

hmm...who to nominate for president of coastopia? Any suggestions?

Our "Founding Fathers" are rolling over in their graves right now. I don't think they could possibly imagine what has happened to this once great country.

Bush & Co. are anti-American to the core. They view the Constitution with disdain and We The People as slaves to the rich.

I'm heartened by the fact that roughly 49% of us voted against Bush, but it's distressing that even ONE person was anti-American enough to pull the lever for Bush much less 51%.

President? We don't need no stinking president.

I suggest administering Coastopia as an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Each of us can take turns as a sort of executive officer of the week. All the decisions of that officer will have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of major issues.

Or we could just wait to see who the lady of the lake picks to be king.

>>>"Say, how many bombings have you heard about in the last 3 years in the continental US? Hmmmm. NONE."

And there were none from 1994-2000 while Clinton was in office, but after that, there was an attack that killed 3,000 people. Terrorists plan slowly and wait. I'd like to know what Bush is doing to protect our nuclear power plants and container ports, while our soldiers are overseas. Whatever it is, I hope it's enough.

I could care less whether W was reading "My Pet Goat"; I don't know what anyone else would do in that situation except not scare the children and wait to figure out what to do next. But I do care that we not get attacked again. Let's not get sidetracked from that issue.

Greetings from one of the most conservative states in the country, home of the old, white, evangelical bible-pushers that re-elected Dubya (Ohio). Too bad that with Dubya, Ohio will probably lose another 250,000 jobs. But hey, GOD WILL GET US THROUGH ANYTHING AS LONG AS YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN STRAIGHT HOMOPHOBIC REDNECK! Can I join you guys in Coastopia? I've always wanted to live in another country!

As a Coastopian born and raised in Massachusetts, living in Oregon for the past 13 years I heartily endorse this idea. To sweeten the deal can we tow the whole thing off the coast of Spain and France with two beautiful bridges connecting us to Paris and Barcelona?

My latte is getting cold - gotta run.

I'm right there with you, as long as we can declare war on the United States as our first action.

Also, by the way, we should take DC. Trust me, they don't want Bush either.

Coastopia sounds great!

Just moved from Ohio to Florida and I realize that I am in same fucking place, surrounded by the same fucking idiots. Big surprise.

When we movin? I have a truck, plenty of experience, and my husband is an architect. We're in.

I fled the capitol of the Confederacy for the capitol of the world long ago. I've never seen NYC as part of hte "regular" US. Glad that I now know my nationality.

I grew up with the notion of those tacky yankees who burned down our houses, and yet, New Yorkers are the friendliest folks I know. Where else do you get a million people per square mile, and without mass violence?

I am glad that C'ville got in. My people are really from that region, and trust me, those mountain people can be a lot more open than you might think.

Please don't forget about Asheville, NC - Santa Cruz with banjos - as I've heard it called.

And I should point out that Richmond, VA - my birthplace, went overwhelmingly for Kerry. The Fan neighborhood there definately feels like Coastopia. Maybe we can just take the 95 corridor and require everyone to drive electric vehicles through Costopia's section.

And try not to be mad at all those rednecks. There are many of us who overcame the church's brainwashing, but still enjoy a little hard outdoor labor now and again - producing the telling discoloration of the space between head and shoulders.

Besides, don't you want blues and cornbread in Coastopia. I really don't think it would be the same without it.

Thank you God! I've been waiting for this day forever. It pisses me off that it takes me five hours to get from one important side of this country to the other. I've been dying to do away with flyover land for a long time now. Woohoo! LA to NY in one hour flat! Now that is something that I can truly get behind.

As much as I love New Orleans..... they really don't have the demographics. There are plenty of casinos in CA, and didn't Vegas go the way of Kerry? It would be logistically much easier to Annex.

Think twice. It's just the party pad of drunken midwesterners.

-Zoe, of the greater SF bay area.

Unite the sucession!

An architect in training, here.Unite the succession!

An architect in training, here. I will be licensed soon. I'm just wondering if I should even bother with the USA test. I figure I'll wait for the Coastopian licensure board and have something that actually has some worth.
Let's learn from the past before moving forward, too. That first succession didn't work very well.
Although the borders of Coastopia successfully give us a "surround and conquer" offense against the evil United Staters, we need to consider our battle strategy. I fear the New Orleans, Chapel Hill, and Durham outposts will fall quickly when the Uniter Staters attempt re-assimilation. My suggestion is to move what we can to our strongest locations before the announcement and leave the rest.
But if we're continuing with the satellite commonwealths, I strongly suggest adding the Miami to Key West area. 1.) Because South Beach will need refuge in Coastopia. 2.) Because the tourism trade could make Coastopia some much needed capital. (I mean c'mon: with all these artists and thinkers, how are we really going to make any money? Sure, we've got LA and some others but there's always that draw to the tropics for honeymoons.) 3.) Dade County did their best to swing the vote in Florida. Soon God will come and pick up most of the population out of the waiting room and leave the entertainers that have attempted to infuse the area. That aught to bring up the highly liberal barometer.

I'm ready.... I am so, so ready! Where do I sign up?

I am sooooo ashamed!! I am living in the "old country. I campaigned, handed out literature, e-mailed, telephoned, talked and talked, had a Kerry Party--to no avail. Could you not just include my small property in coastopia?? Please!! I am sooooo depressed. Ruthless

Thank you Citygod ! You took the words right out of my mouth. I really feel sorry for this Norom.
He will be the first to bitch in the coming years.
Norom, I have never seen Michael Moore's film to quote him, just so you know. To clarify your lack of understanding regarding Active & Retired Military benefit proposed cuts, The Bush admn. is proposing to cut health,retirement pensions,death indemnity compensation to both active & retired families. This means that if a soldier dies during active duty, the families will not receive
the military insurance that covers their loved one, which is contractual between the govt., and the enlisted personnel upon signing on for military duty. Retirees stand to lose their retirement pensions. Would you like it if someone took away your pension and left you nothing, and you were guaranteed this upon contract? I don't think so...
Gay rights: not just about marriage bozo! They are intitled to the same rights as the straight community. The right to partnership recognition, right to see their loved ones in an ICU, the rights to partnership tax advantage, legal rights to healthcare. This boils down to this country losing money if they allow gays to marry. Marriage is a contract between two people, and not
of the governments ruling. Isn't it funny how the seperation of church and state gets pulled out when you start to talk about gay marriage. What about the morals of those straight people who cheat on their spouses, beat their kids, and then have the audasity to sit in church every Sunday! This country is about the freedom of equal opportunity for all, including those of race, creed,color,religion,and sexual orientation. Perhaps you forgot that....Are you sure Noram isn't backwards for Moron? Have you served in the
US Military, or did you get 6 deferrments to aviod service like Cheney.

Oops, you'll need to cut Oregon, Washington, and California in half lengthwise. The east side of the Cascades/Sierras is decidedly redneck. Red everything.

I'm so terribly sad and so sorry that tolerance in America is so difficult. We are a democracy. It is our responsibility to voice what we know to be true. We cannot be intimidated by people who do not know how to listen to divergent views. So, we listen very carefully. They are very frightened. We are sad. An important difference. Listen, please. Listen and figure out where our common ground lies. Common ground is important and I believe that there is the answer to our collective sadness.

Thanks for the only laugh I've had in three days. You need to put a purple dot on the map for Yellow Springs, Ohio as well (a tiny little oasis of coolness in the red sea of Ohio).

Too much to lose. I don't want to give them my great lakes, plains, or rocky mountains. We need to have a redneck roundup and corral those fucks down to texas. Shit, then we could sell it off to mexico. They could call it Texaco.

*Bush has political capital. It has a short shelf life. If he wants to try to partially privatize (er, excuse me, "reform") Social Security, or any of the other agenda items he mentioned, he's got about a year to do so. After that, Congress turns to thoughts of re-election, and he becomes the lamest of lame ducks.

*If the Republicans don't ditch Arlen Specter from Chairmanship of the Judiciary committee, they will have more pissed off constituents than they can deal with. If he, Linc Chafee, Olympia Snowe, and Susan Collins want to go be Democrats, or join the Jumpin' Jim Jeffords Party, let 'em. That's still 51 Republicans, and we'll get more in 2006.

*Some people have a problem with calling the Bush win "decisive". Well, the country did decide, so the word is not used improperly. Bush also got over 50% of the popular vote for the first time anyone's done it since his dad in 1988. Considering Clinton never got over 49%, as well as the debacle of 2000, a clean, clear, majority victory is fairly decisive.

*Awright, it's been 3 days of whining, rending of garments, tearing out of hair, and threatening to leave the country by liberals. It's been 3 days of making excuses, assessing blame, and insulting those who voted for Bush. Here's a tip, liberals. Come up with some new %$#@ing ideas, work to sell them to the people, instead of trying to foist them ON the people, and be prepared to honestly debate them. No Democrat has proposed a new political idea since 1966 (Medicare), and look how well THAT has turned out. Before that, you have to go back to the New Deal. I thought it was conservatives that abhorred change. Your best ideas are over 60 years old, and if you look at them honestly, they weren't that good. Social Security and Medicare were and are Ponzi schemes. We're running out of workers to pay for the retirees, and you don't have a clue what to do about it (well, actually you DO, but you can't tell anybody you want to means test it and raise the hell out of FICA taxes). read the rreport of the SS commission Bush had in the forst year of his administration. On it were liberals Pat Moynihan and Bob Kerrey. They advocated private SS accounts. Stop whining, stop channeling Karl Marx, FDR, and LBJ, and try to live in the real world. You might actually win sometime in the near future.

*And while I'm on the subject, I am a conservative. I don't know of any other conservative who is ashamed to call himself a conservative. Some of us even call ourselves Paleoconservatives (not me, but some do). Stop trying to hide and call yourselves what you are. You're #@$%ing liberals. You aren't "progressive", since your newest idea is over 30 years old. Be who you are, and if you can't get elected being that, maybe YOU'RE the ones who are stupid, ignorant, duped, and foolish. But stop insulting people who don't vote the way you want them to, if you aren't going to be brave enough to be who you are, say who you are, and say what you stand for.

Rant over, carry on.

"Stop trying to hide and call yourselves what you are"?

You gotta love "compassionate conservatism." What the hell that any of these "compassionate conservatives" say or do is even remotely "compassionate?" You know, being a sarcastic guy, I used to love euphamisms as I used them to joke around until the Bush administration came along. Now I can't stand euphamisms. Everyone calls Kerry a flip-flopper. Bush is a huge flip flopper and no-one wants to recognize it, especially when it comes to Iraq. Not only is he a flip flopper, but he has more "amnesia" than anyone I have ever seen; theres a euphamism for you. First Iraq had WMDs, a link to Al-Qaeda and was looking to use aluminum tubes bought from Africa to nuke us. Then after we went to war, no WMDs. The Bush administration fought this. This claim turned out to be false. After alot of fighting, they finally conceded there were no WMDs. Then they stuck to the Al-Qaeda link, which also turned out to be false. They fought that too, but again, false. Then they said, well, Iraq had "intentions" to go after us. What the fuck? What the hell happened to the "credible undeniable proof" that they had that Iraq was an imminent threat to us, not to mention that they were behind Al-Qaeda's 911 attack? (OOPS, SORRY, THAT'S FALSE TOO, thank you 911 commission!). What is up with Bush trying for years to block an independant commission to investigate 911? Lemme think, if I were in charge, and I had a huge attack on my country's soil, the first thing I would find out is what the hell happened to bring this about. Why would you block such a thing? One reason, you've got something to hide. Do yourself a favor, read 1984 then look at any one of Bush's speeches and you'll see at least 2 good examples of Doublespeak. My point, Bush not only isn't consistent with his facts, he blatantly lies about alot of things, especially Iraq. Someone I know once said, at least he is doing what he thinks is right. I DON'T CARE IF HE BELIEVES THIS WILL BRING THE MESSIAH! It doesn't matter if he believes what he is doing is right (or at least pretends to), it matters if it IS the right thing to do. Going to war with NO PROOF is wrong, and defending it is wrong, especially when every piece of your evidence has been refuted. I am sick and tired of people turning a blind eye to this. People just selectively forget the facts and say "You gotta stick by the president." Let me tell you something, I dont have to stick by shit. I stick by whats right, and Im not seeing it. Lastly, what the hell is up with the name calling? Nobody wants to listen to a reasonable argument, so they call me a liberal. Well you know what, I AM A LIBERAL! Good, now are you happy? Call me names, I don't care. I got a question for you, why don't you use your brain? Good question I think. Long live American Coastopia, and I love the fact that I don't need to move from my NH residence to be a part of it!

I'm in. But I don't want to have to shoot anyone to gain independence. Also, I don't think we should cut off the area east of the Cascades/Sierra's. Sure, they are rednecks over there - however - at least in WA - the East side of the mountains contains fertile plains. A lot of wheat comes from Eastern WA, and I think we will need that because a lot of us are going to be vegetarians I'm sure. God damn midwesterners and southerners.

Also, WA has tons of Native American casinos and New Orleans is dirty and violent. So we don't need New Orleans - well actually the jazz scene is vital to history - so lets keep it.

Hey, why'd you leave Hawaii out? They voted for Kerry. We need pineapple, macadamia nuts and a convenient place for sitcoms to film family trips in the years after they Jump the Shark.

You now what? You all are making sick, both liberals and conservatives. Your bickering and in-fighting is what is fucking up this country. I'm a fucking LIBERTARIAN. What, we don't get any states? I see how it is...a country of elitist dogs Is that what you people are, fucking dogs? Can you only see in black and white? America is a country that thrives on ethnic, economic, and cultural diversity. Splitting the country up is not going to fix things. And running away isn't going to make things any better, either. Try to act like mature adults and face your goddamn problems for once. And for God's sake, take responsibility for your own actions for once. Not everything that happens in this world can be answered by "It's not my fault". Face it, we are not perfect. We are ALL wrong in this by some way or another.

Now, as far as dividing the country, that is just stupid. Especially since you are doing it to serve your own agenda. The only way to do it right is to go door-to-door and find out if they're Rep or Dem. Oh, you Dems want Durham? How do you know that business owner didn't vote Republican? Isn't it unfair to force him/her to convert just 'cause they're in a city you want. That kind of logic is real mature.

So grow up, people. The world is not always going to go the way you want it. Nothing is going to get better if we, as AMERICANS, can learn to compromise with each other and move forward as a country. It's OK for each of you to have your own opinions on how things should be run, but have the common courtesy to repect those that differ from yours. Some of us in the service, and many of those before us, fight very hard so you can have the right to disagree. So please, don't abuse it so much.

You are being copied. Your comments about Coastopia have been copied verbatim and is travelling in a fast-moving forward. You might want to contact Debbie Berger

Center for American Progress

phone: 202/478-6330

fax: 202/682-1867

cell: 202/320-9946

Pisto >>> "You aren't "progressive", since your newest idea is over 30 years old. Be who you are, and if you can't get elected being that, maybe YOU'RE the ones who are stupid, ignorant, duped, and foolish. But stop insulting people who don't vote the way you want them to, if you aren't going to be brave enough to be who you are, say who you are, and say what you stand for.

Gee, Pete... no one forced you to come to Coastopia just to be an a**hole. Coastopians are content. Sore winners ought to look at themselves.

Please stop tyring to make us your 51st state, don't you realize that trying to take our country is just like what they're doing in Iraq. I respect your country because ours is not perfect either, and I think we can all learn from each other. However I would like to extend an invitation to all those truley fed up to try and emigrate to Canada. That is, if you think you can learn to live with all the polar bears and what not...:)

How much do teachers get paid in Coastopia? Or is money obsolete? That would be okay too.

I would like to continue trying to encourage critical thinking here in the Old Country, but I fear that once the schools all fail to meet the unfunded NCLB goals and are privatized, I will be out of a job. Because the responsibility for running our schools will certainly fall into the hands of "faith-based" (read: Bush's base) organizations, I will become unemployable.

You are being copied.

Nick Cvietkovich, who's being copied?

Aww...thanks for remembering Iowa. It did vote Democrat for the past 4 elections and it still might have this time.

But you forgot Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin! They're all Blue States!

I love it! However, bird is right -- you forgot to include Minnesota and Wisconsin. However, if you simply threw in Minneapolis, Madison, and Milwaukee as affiliated "dots," that'd do as well.

This guy gets it, too bad most of you don't.

The Values-Vote Myth
By DAVID BROOKS

Every election year, we in the commentariat come up with a story line to explain the result, and the story line has to have two features. First, it has to be completely wrong. Second, it has to reassure liberals that they are morally superior to the people who just defeated them.

In past years, the story line has involved Angry White Males, or Willie Horton-bashing racists. This year, the official story is that throngs of homophobic, Red America values-voters surged to the polls to put George Bush over the top.

This theory certainly flatters liberals, and it is certainly wrong.

Here are the facts. As Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center points out, there was no disproportionate surge in the evangelical vote this year. Evangelicals made up the same share of the electorate this year as they did in 2000. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who are pro-life. Sixteen percent of voters said abortions should be illegal in all circumstances. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who say they pray daily.

It's true that Bush did get a few more evangelicals to vote Republican, but Kohut, whose final poll nailed the election result dead-on, reminds us that public opinion on gay issues over all has been moving leftward over the years. Majorities oppose gay marriage, but in the exit polls Tuesday, 25 percent of the voters supported gay marriage and 35 percent of voters supported civil unions. There is a big middle on gay rights issues, as there is on most social issues.

Much of the misinterpretation of this election derives from a poorly worded question in the exit polls. When asked about the issue that most influenced their vote, voters were given the option of saying "moral values." But that phrase can mean anything - or nothing. Who doesn't vote on moral values? If you ask an inept question, you get a misleading result.

The reality is that this was a broad victory for the president. Bush did better this year than he did in 2000 in 45 out of the 50 states. He did better in New York, Connecticut and, amazingly, Massachusetts. That's hardly the Bible Belt. Bush, on the other hand, did not gain significantly in the 11 states with gay marriage referendums.

He won because 53 percent of voters approved of his performance as president. Fifty-eight percent of them trust Bush to fight terrorism. They had roughly equal confidence in Bush and Kerry to handle the economy. Most approved of the decision to go to war in Iraq. Most see it as part of the war on terror.

The fact is that if you think we are safer now, you probably voted for Bush. If you think we are less safe, you probably voted for Kerry. That's policy, not fundamentalism. The upsurge in voters was an upsurge of people with conservative policy views, whether they are religious or not.

The red and blue maps that have been popping up in the papers again this week are certainly striking, but they conceal as much as they reveal. I've spent the past four years traveling to 36 states and writing millions of words trying to understand this values divide, and I can tell you there is no one explanation. It's ridiculous to say, as some liberals have this week, that we are perpetually refighting the Scopes trial, with the metro forces of enlightenment and reason arrayed against the retro forces of dogma and reaction.

In the first place, there is an immense diversity of opinion within regions, towns and families. Second, the values divide is a complex layering of conflicting views about faith, leadership, individualism, American exceptionalism, suburbia, Wal-Mart, decorum, economic opportunity, natural law, manliness, bourgeois virtues and a zillion other issues. (Like I said. Kerry has NEVER took pride in AMERICAN Pride. He looked down on it like the eurowennies do. American exceptionalism is real. From the Barbary Pirates to the Panama Canal to the Moon Landing, to medicine to missle defense to helping every country the world over during earthquakes, floods, wars etc...)

But the same insularity that caused many liberals to lose touch with the rest of the country now causes them to simplify, misunderstand and condescend to the people who voted for Bush. If you want to understand why Democrats keep losing elections, just listen to some coastal and university town liberals talk about how conformist and intolerant people in Red America are. It makes you wonder: why is it that people who are completely closed-minded talk endlessly about how open-minded they are?

What we are seeing is a diverse but stable Republican coalition gradually eclipsing a diverse and stable Democratic coalition. Social issues are important, but they don't come close to telling the whole story. Some of the liberal reaction reminds me of a phrase I came across recently: The rage of the drowning man.

You guys should reconsider about New Hampshire. Kerry only won by 9,309 votes despite what Nader says. You'll have to deal with The Free State Project (www.freestateproject.org) which would involve you doing something besides just sitting around declaring secession. Far from being another Vermont, the Granite State is too independent not to quickly secede from Coastopia anyway.

Who is John Galt?

Wahoo!!! Already a member of American Coastopia, living in CA and all, though I am aware that part of this state is probably going to want to stay red. Sounds like a great idea to me!

To those who seem to have a problem with the proposition, particularly with the fact that many of us, who were born here, are comfortable staying where we are rather than 'moving to France'...

Nearly half the country voted against Bush. Kerry wasn't a great candidate, and no, I'm not a democrat (or a Republican), and we STILL got nearly half the country voting against Bush. Why should we fund warmongering when we've already been driven into debt? Why should we endure increased risks of terrorism and the antipathy of almost the whole world? Can't speak for my fellow blue countrymen, but California has been largely ignored (by both administrations, actually) because they know how we're going to vote. During our energy crisis, despite the fact that we're the seventh largest economy IN THE WORLD and contribute largely to the economy of our former country, not only did the administration ignore us, but the public opinion from the US was essentially "Ha ha, ya flaming liberals! Enjoy your darkness!" And now you want to keep us? Ha!!

A true democracy BASED on Constitutional principles does not operate by saying "We got a slim majority, time to obliterate checks and balances and move ahead with a highly conservative agenda". They are already making plans to strip the Constitution, allegedly there to protect us from an irresponsible majority "mob mentality" to agree with their plans. In essence, the administration is going forward with the idea that nearly half the country's population was a nuisance that can now be overcome.

So we're leaving! Deal with it. And I am aware of California's ban on gay marriage, because I was campaigning against it when the anti-persecution people were on campus trying to get people to realize that other people's love is none of their business. Hopefully, in American Coastopia, though we welcome dissenting political opinions, we can start from a position where ALL people are created equal, not the Orwellian "but some are more equal than others".

And of course secession isn't a new idea. What does strike me as funny is that some of the people calling us whiners etc are from states that still want to fly the confederate flag. I'd like to think our secession is based on something a little more noble than keeping other people as slaves though. I'm also hoping there won't be a war considering how badly the pro-Bush people seem to want us out to begin with. Having us around delays the appointment of conservative judges to the Supreme Court, the passage of more legislation to pour MORE money and lives into Iraq and whatever country we decide to terrorize next (Iraq had nothing to do with WMDs or 9/11, people!! So what we did was terrorism!), and the entire Bush agenda.

So Viva American Coastopia!!!!

Ishtar

I'm a midwestern married mother of two from IN. Does that conjure up any stereotypes? If it did, I might not fit the stereotypes that either the liberals or conservatives think from this website. I am an educated working professional and a die-hard liberal living in a state that is mainly red. I have been in heated debates with neighbors and friends on these topics for years. In my ignorant bliss, I always considered their belief systems antiquated and conservatives a "dying breed. It is now 4 days after the election, and I am still baffled. As I read some of the stereotypical and hateful respones from some of the conservatives, it occurred to me that we liberals are also being sterotypical and hateful too. I am going to try to practice what I preach by being open-minded even if it requires being open-minded to what I consider closed-mindedness. Surprisingly enough, my republican friend sent me this website.

P.S. Helenjane's comment is one of my favorites...concise and to the point!

I go to school in Portland Oregon, at one of the only all-girls schools on the west coast. half of my school is willingly joining your American Coastopia. ...now how do we let the rest of the world know we've seceded?

Go ahead and leave. We don't want you.

P.S. Actually, I live in PA. Please take Philadelphia with you and leave the rest to us.

Hmmm...

Well, I come from Minnesota, a state excluded from your map. Minnesota has a long and continuous tradition of voting Democrat. Heck, I think we were the ONLY state that Reagan did not win in 1985. Perhaps you need to do your research...

What this article really does, though, is show the closed-mindedness and narrow viewpoints of many modern-day American liberals. Let me apply an approach similar to the one you, and many other cloberals (close-minded liberals), use on us:

Residing in their hip, contemporary inter-urban flats, furnished after one of Sex and the City girls' pads, they snicker making scornful armchair judgments of us middle-American folks: lower-end, trashy, and certainly not in conformity with the current social trends (but they'll never use the word "conformity", because their progressive views make them SUCH INDIVIDUALS). Our un-enlightened views on marriage (we believe that it is an institution between a MAN and a WOMAN, as it normally has been in the past, with the possible exception of heterosexual polygamy, which I don't support, of course), abortion, or as they euphemize it, "reproductive rights" (we believe that human life has sancity, no matter what its age, and most us have sense enough to realize that abortion occurs after the reproducin'), religion (we Middle-American folks are mindless followers of hopeless out-of-date Christianity, backwards because it acknowledges the human condition and actually preaches **MORALITY**, as opposed to the one of the many terribly posh flavors of new age-ism), and a hodge-podge of other things, e.g. gun rights ('cuz it's necessary to take the guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens) and the like.

After using their ever-sagacious judgment, of the in-superior nature of the middle western breed, and how they just ought to be spat upon, if only in words, the cloberal goes on to criticize the brutal intolerance of them simple people. Oh, no, but isn't the cloberal, in her trendy $500 Manolo Blahniks, as opposed to the cheap department-store shoes that grab the non-peticured middle-American feet, being a bit intolerant here? Not quite, because in the Cloberal's revisionist 2004 dictionary, "tolerance" is a virtue extending solely to other liberals. It shall not bestowed, for purposes of social advancement, upon anybody who believes in the existence of right-and-wrong, unless they're a non-Christian, because we all know how far back Christianity has set society. The new dual-standard of tolerance may seem illogical at first, but the cloberal, with her ever-keen reasoning skills honed from a feminist interpetation of the Qu'ran and Madonnan Kabbalah, cannot fail. After all, who's the one not wanting gays to get married? (to be continued, maybe, but I got lazy and decided to stop here for now. AIIGHT?)

Yes! I've been circulating the same idea to all my friends. We should definately seced - we should have been two countries since the Civil War.

I vote for joining Canada. We would then be the largest, most economically & culturally vital country in the world. The "old" united states would continue to fall backwards into ruin. We might need to send them a bit of aid to keep them from becoming a third world country though.

There seems to be little that liberals and conservatives can agree on, but maybe there is one thing. After Sept. 11, we all felt a sense of unity like never before. Now there is a great divide and we are bickering and contemptuous of each other. We were one people; now we are red states and blue states, pompous, dirty liberals and stupid, redneck conservatives. This great sad divide is the direct result of the Bush administration's leadership.

If I had to choose between Coastopia and the rest of the country, I would certainly go with Coastopia, but I would miss my friends in the rest of the country.

Mrs. G

Gotta agree with Mrs. G. Ive been thinking about how people can't agree on anything, and one side is always the ignorant side. I personally realize now though that seceding isn't going to stop ignorance on either side. However, it would be nice to get away from Mr. Bush's tyranny, so therefore Long live American Coastopia ;) People, try to think and look outside your narrow spectrum of ideas (this goes out to everyone)

I have yet to read through all of the posts, and doubt I have the authority to do this - - but I have set up an Embassy for America Coastopia here in Cookeville, TN. (“Cookeville! - We built a Art Center, but don’t worry, we mainly use it for church.”) With that in mind:

I declare myself soveirgn to American Coastopia, and promise to represent its values and people to the best of my ability.

Christopher Milton
Self declared Ambassodor to Tennessee of American Coastopia

I have yet to read through all of the posts, and doubt I have the authority to do this - - but I have set up an Embassy for America Coastopia here in Cookeville, TN. (“Cookeville! - We built a Art Center, but don’t worry, we mainly use it for church.”) With that in mind:

I declare myself sovereign to American Coastopia, and promise to represent its values and people to the best of my ability.

Christopher Milton
Self declared Ambassador to Tennessee of American Coastopia

"What this article really does, though, is show the closed-mindedness and narrow viewpoints of many modern-day American liberals. Let me apply an approach similar to the one you, and many other cloberals (close-minded liberals), use on us"
======
What this article does is make you look a complete fool.
Me? I've never paid $500 for anything other than to get my car fixed...or my rent.
I've never known a "close-minded" liberal.
In fact, before we go any further, I think you should define the word "liberal" because I don't think you...or most of the people who use it like they use the word "motherfucker"...knows what it actually means.

I am proud to say that PA is a blue state. Formerly I made fun of my home but no longer. I am proud to be part of American Coastopia. That being said, however, I am going to choose to stay here with the yucky parts of the country and fight for what I believe in. Maybe it's easier because I'm from PA (yay!) but leaving the rest of the 55 million to suffer just doesn't seem fair.

I am proud to say that PA is a blue state. Formerly I made fun of my home but no longer. I am proud to be part of American Coastopia. That being said, however, I am going to choose to stay here with the yucky parts of the country and fight for what I believe in. Maybe it's easier because I'm from PA (yay!) but leaving the rest of the 55 million to suffer just doesn't seem fair.

You need to include AUSTIN, TX.

If you look at any county-by-county map, you'll see Austin is bright blue, having gone for Kerry almost 60% to only 38%

Austin is a great, cool, liberal, high-tech, artsy city that is the live music captial of the world.

TAKE US WITH YOU! :-)

Thank you, Jacob diMinnesota, for making the perfect case for everything I voted against. You prove I voted correctly. FYI, your free speech is copied so I can use its incisive logic as precious gems to illuminate my next speech about the pressing need today for balance, humor, tolerance and justice. Thanks tons.
Love isn't a twisted construction spewing from the head. It doesn't need words, and is centered located a little lower, actually. Ah, not too low, now. That little head down there, Jacob, is just as self-serving as the big one up top. Try thinking from your heart. It won't make near as many mistakes as either one of those other two appendages will, you'll have a lot more friends and see a more wonderful, more inclusive and unified world. I strongly suggest you stop drinking, too. It's devastating too much of your brain, right where you need those cells the most (the limbic system--uh, where your feelings are).
Congratulations for helping and "Go, Jacob"! Oops, I mean, don't go. Don't come... to Coastopia. Uh, sit, stay, lie down, roll over, play dead!
Long live Coastopians for Sanity, Peace, and Really Happy Dogs.

still feeling sick but choose to believe it's a sign for all the peace lovin hippies to make a stand and run towards coastopia! we don't need the red states but they will come to see how badly they need us when the shit really hits the fan.

i have to get packing. see ya'll in coastopia!

I know this is a bit long, but I found it helpful to look up the words everyone is tossing around. Revealing, and a little surprising, these are direct quotes from Dictionary.com and Roget's Thesaurus. You decide, based on these definitions, not on the redefined meanings used by some of our public servants, to which category you would like to belong.

From Dictionary.com
liberalism
1. The state or quality of being liberal.
2. A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans
and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political
liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and
protection from arbitrary authority.
3. An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market,
and the gold standard

conservatism
1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing
or traditional order.
2. A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional
institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden
change in the established order.

liberal
adj.

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or
authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress,
and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

conservative
adj.
1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.

From Roget's Thesaurus:

Entry: liberal
Function: adjective
Definition: progressive
Synonyms: advanced, avant-garde, big, broad, broad-minded, catholic, detached, disinterested, dispassionate,
enlightened, flexible, free, general, high-minded, humanistic, humanitarian, impartial, indulgent,
inexact, intelligent, interested, latitudinarian, left, lenient, libertarian, loose, magnanimous,
not close, not literal, not strict, permissive, pink, radical, rational, reasonable, receiving, receptive,
reformist, tolerant, unbiased, unbigoted, unconventional, understanding, unorthodox, unprejudiced

Entry: conservative
Function: adjective
Definition: moderate
Synonyms: bourgeois, cautious, constant, controlled, conventional, die-hard, fearful, firm, fogyish, fuddy-duddy, guarded,
hard hat, hidebound, holding to, illiberal, inflexible, middle-of-the-road, not extreme, obstinate, old guard, old-line,
orthodox, quiet, red-neck, right, right-wing, sober, stable, steady, timid, traditional, traditionalistic, unchangeable,
unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative, unprogressive, white bread

I was all with you until you made that really cruel comment about Duke. I went to Duke and many of my democratic friends went to Duke. Why would you say something like that? I wouldn't say that about Chapel Hill. I love Chapel Hill. You become devisive and part of the problem when you alienate a group of intelligent and liberal people who were as depressed as anyone else on election day. I was a part of Duke Democrates. We campaigned for Clilnton and for Harvey Gantt when he ran against Jesse Helms. We lobbied in Washington for women's rights. Why would you alienate us just for a joke or a school rivalry or for whatever reason you made that comment.

Oh, and Wake Forest is in Winston Salem not Greensboro you idiot. And my very democtratic Uncle and Grandmother live there. My Uncle works on for urban planning keeping Walmart and other big land hording corps in check. Your as bad and apparently as ignorant as the right you jerk!

The Dook comment was meant in terms of moving the school like Wake Forest was moved, and I happened to mention Greensboro, although I can see how that was confusing. I am well aware of where Wake is now located.

By the way, I apologize for nothing when it comes to Duke. Sorry, but a guy's gotta have his demons.

Can Wisconsin join? PLEASE!!!!!

Well, you can have your country. I prefer a country that stands besides its soliders and we would all be better off with Hollywood sinking into the deepest part of the ocean. Seems like you good folks have all the answers. And it also seems like you are full of a lot of hate. I know things like family and motherhood (so sorry Teresa, I personally think being a mother is one of the most important jobs) are "traditional" and not forward thinking enough for you folks. I live on the east coast and my husband works in a prison full of men and women who have so benefitted from your wonderful welfare state. Actually, here in PA, you can have as many children as you like, and we keep on giving you money. (Of course, noone clues them in and tells them that $300 a month per kid isn't going to actually support them. But they do know if they are able to get a mental health diagnosis on them they get almost double that per kid!) Hope you guys are ready to support cities of women and the children (in prison they call them wives, mistresses and baby-mamas - isn't that sweet!) and the men who leave them. Because, heaven forbid, we trample on their human rights and actually expect them to work!!!! Actually, you can continue the trend, and instead of having welfare support those who temporarily need it, just make it a way of life, passing down the core values of receiving a hand out and never really putting anything back. As a young man I worked with so eloquently put it when asked what he planned to do when he grew up "Do? What do you mean do?"
"Well," I said "you know, work. What would you like to do?"
"I ain't going to work!"
"How will you live then? What will you do for money?"
"Money - they just send me the check man, they send me the check."
How sad that a boy of 12 thinks this is the proper way to "work." Because, well, if you actually get a job, your system is set up to take away their benefits. Anyway, go ahead and keep them down, so you have someone to look after and Hollywood and all the music "artists" have someone to champion. They need to make themselves feel better for having all that money. Hmm wonder if they would offer "free" movies or CDs to anyone showing an id that states they are down-trodden. Because we all know who is supporting their million dollar homes, their "pimped up rides" and their glamourous life style. And if you really educated them, they may get wise and stop buying the stuff.

Anyway, sorry for your bitterness. Have a wonderful country. You should elect Kerry to be president. But please make sure Teresa closes all of those factories overseas. You should keep the jobs in your country.

PS As for gay marriage, we all don't believe in what you have put forth. I do believe that equal rights should be given and civil services should be legal. So, please don't make wide classifications of people of faith.

Remember, John Kerry is against gay marriage! Please do America a favor and just move your sorry whiny asses to France!

>>As a young man I worked with so eloquently put it ..."Well," I said "you know, work. What would you like to do?" "I ain't going to work!"

One of the big problems with conservatives is assumptions. I love how you find one 12-year-old boy who said something not very bright in conversation and use it to indict a whole system meant to help people. Think of all the children you would hurt if you stop providing a safety net (note: Safety net meaning last resort to protect people from the lowest depths of pain), just because you chose to use the words of one 12-year-old to back up your argument.

By the way, Does that 12-year-old live next door to the people on Welfare who own 8 Cadillacs, and up the road from the "lazy" homeless people who sit on the sidewalk begging for money from strangers all day because so much it's easier than going into an office on Wall Street? What a country!

There are some conservatives here who have made rational arguments, but both sides would do better if we didn't resort to ignorance and assumptions, particularly like the one above. I mean, complaining about Welfare and people getting rich off it? That is sooooo 1980s! I thought Welfare to Work was supposed to fix that. At least we're trying to address the problem.

Help people to help themselves, whatever the reason they got into their situation... - isn't that what Christianity teaches as well?

Wow so much anger from some of these people. I would like to point out:
Just because we are forward thinking liberals, we have not necessarily left things like traditional marige, and family values behind. We still like those things, but we don't believe everyone has to like them or believe in them.
Just because we we allow "gay marriage" doesn't mean you have to "marry gay."
Just because we think Welfare is a good idea, doesn't mean we like how it is run in your country.
Just because we don't support the "War" doesn't mean we don't love, care and fear for the lives of our soldiers.
Just because we hate taxbreaks for companies who outsource to third world countries, doesn't mean we don't think a global economy is good. (It's called corporate responsibility.)

There are others to come, but I need to get back to other matters. Thak you for your time and have a nice day!

Sincerely,

Christopher Milton
Self declared Ambassador to Tennessee of American Coastopia

P.S. And please don't look at our plans of secession and our political rhetoric as whining, think of it as country building. I seem to remember similar posturing (from both sides) being propagated 234 years ago.

Sorry, in point #4, make strike "our" and add "your" so it reads: "lives of your soldiers."

..."just a joke or a school rivalry or whatever"..

I'm gonna have to check with the admissions office; I can't be sure that Kat Moore got the full number of meaningful credits at the University of New Jersey at Durham, although I'm sure her shit stinx just like the rest of us, whether we be Tar Hellians or smelly dookies.

While the commenters on this blog can diss, agree, disagree, or agree to disagree on political matters or 'whatever', let's get one thing that does matter straight, Duke Sucks Donkey Ding-Dongs (made of Dung).

Go Heels.

Wow, more angry stuff! Go fig.

The interesting thing is how well the heads of the Republican party have manipulated the meaning of the word: morality. Morals, if we are to believe them, center around gays and abortion. Though gay LOVE is not addressed in the Bible, lust is, and is equivalent (in Romans) with adultery. Adultery is described a number of ways INCLUDING marriage of those who have been divorced due to something other than fornication.

Abortion is not addressed at all. There is a sneaky passage in Exodus that people keep fighting over the translation on, and "Thou shalt not kill (murder)" is not specific enough to be useful for anything, since the original passage is followed by a boatload of mixed messages.

So what is moral? We have someone making wild assumptions about welfare states. Personally, I work. I don't have any government handouts. I just graduated from college and it's a nasty job market, so I'm working a job I'm overqualified for, but working it nonetheless, and grateful to have a job.

The issue that is HEAVILY covered by Jesus throughout the New Testament is poverty. If we are to believe the heads of the Republican party and many of the people who voted in that direction, Jesus would support stockpiling wealth, telling the homeless to "Get jobs!" (we all know how hard it is to get a job in the current market when you DO have a home) and to generally demonstrate a lack of compassion for those on a lower economic level. Does that mean I support mothers using children as welfare checks? No. But I also see programs to address poverty considered "Liberal garbage" by people supposedly making the "moral choice". Read your Bibles people!

Would Jesus support going to war against Iraq? Bible doesn't tell us explicitly, but considering his positions on violence, I'm guessing going to war, particularly without cause, wouldn't have been a big hit. And folks, there's no cause. There are no WMDs (except the ones we lost). Saddam hasn't tried anything against us in ten years. They weren't involved in 9/11 (though Jesus wasn't big on revenge killing, was he?), and they weren't sponsoring terrorist cells. Even the Republicans decided that. Are we freeing the Iraqi people? Hmm... we bombed a bunch of their stuff and have declared martial law. We have been cooperating with dictatorships to try and gain access in the war while ignoring the countless others around the world. So that doesn't pan out. You know what country has expressed pleasure with the Republican outcome? China. The Republicans increase trade with them without harping on human rights issues. Additionally, the same people considered the "moral choice" are in bed with a fundamentalist Islamic country that mistreats women that has sponsored more terrorist activity than any other- Saudi Arabia.

By the way, I do support our troops. What I do not support is sending them into harm's way and pulling them away from their families to fight for the sake of fighting. I find our current use of them ::gasp:: immoral.

So stop painting me as being anti-Christianity simply because you're too lazy to read your own Bibles. Stop painting your party as the moral choice because they have the "Christian" values of hoarding wealth, waging war, ignoring atrocity, and supporting the interests of people who want us all dead.

Oh, and folks, you aren't safer. Those states actually directly affected by terrorism didn't go for Bush. Recruiting for terrorist groups is at an all time high, and we have lost the support in fighting terrorism in most of the world. So sweet dreams! Here in American Coastopia, we'd prefer NOT to be targeted for your policies.

Ishie

Yes - help people to work. I don't see that happening. And, no, one 12-year-old is a small, tiny example. I have worked in social services for years with under privledged youths. I have seen their pain and suffering and the lack of morality and caring in their lives. There are a huge number of children fathered without thought - to children, to women who have no way to change their life. We are lower income family - raking in a monsterous sum of $38,000 per year, raising our children (all 3) to believe that everyone is equal. That some people make bad choices and that others are trapped by our system.

Am I angry? Yes I am. Because I wish to hell there was a middle ground in this country. I am for same sex unions - I happen to have a lot of dear friends who are gay and see their pain - I am for protection of our enviroment, am for distribution of wealth. But I am sick and tired of being labeled in a sterotypical way by people who think they know me. I am tired of the media in this country trying to stuff liberal views down my throat. I am sick of the hypocrisy of the politicans (on both sides).

And, we are not all the same either, my friend. Do you wonder why the country is so dividied, that people cannot meet in the middle when you say things like:

"because so many of you in the "heartland" are so full of shit"

"We are tired of rednecks in Oklahoma picking the leader who will determine if it is safe for us to cross the Brooklyn Bridge. We are sick of homophobic knuckle-draggers in Wyoming contributing to the national debate on our gay marriages"

Nice language and generalities here. Also - this is wonderful -
"Hopefully they'll blow targets in Texas or something, and not take it out on New York any more"

I am a mother. I have 3 small children. I have a husband who took this country as his own in March of this year. I have friends and family across the board and across the world.

Hopefully they will blow up Texas. Last I looked, Texans are Americans too. And people.

I do read the bible - every night - and find your views interesting. Don't call me lazy if you don't know me. And, the bible is one interpretation of those things that happen. Just as your views are.

Duke Sux. Coach K looks like a ferret. Is this the Twilight Zone? coastopia is toastopia. God Bless the Unified Sanctity of Anti-Duke.

For anyone interested in some real facts - on both ends. I can't imagine it - but hoping some do have an open mind....at least about the truths and lies of the people running this country

http://www.factcheck.org/

Maybe it'd make sense for American Coastopia to join the EU and adopt the Euro. After all, it's kicking the living shit out of the U.S. dollar these days -- we'd have another automatic advantage against Old U.S.A., and we'd all have those nifty EU passports too. But either way is fine with me. Anything to be able to talk to people around the world without having to apologize...

i'm delighted to be a part of our new nation Coastopia, with the 16 highest state IQ ratings in the former USA. hey, let's veto the patriot act and get back to basics as far as progression. and do you think it's possible to just push florida out into the atlantic? it would make my soul sit easier. p.s. dc's coming too, and the white house, it was ours first. w. can just use a trailer or something out in west virginia.

I'm down here in C.H., but plan to move back deep into Coastopia, where it's safe from ignorant "IQ-of-60" rednecks. But, since the Red States DID win the election, I suggest we reward them with a gift of their own making: Once the Iraq War is finally over, and millions of radical Iraqis call on us seeking asylum, we should resettle them all(as we will be obliged to do)into the Red States that voted for the Idiot that got us into the whole mess in the first place. Enjoy your spoils of war, folks!

I do read the bible - every night - and find your views interesting. Don't call me lazy if you don't know me.
-----------------
But of course I wasn't. I could question your comprehension skills. The lazy statement was an If-then modification. DON'T label me as Anti-Christian IF you're too lazy to read your own Bible. The fact that I am for gay marriage/union and pro choice means many see me as immoral and Anti-Christian, as if the Bible reads: Page One: God Rules. Page Two: Gays Suck. Page Three: Life Begins at Conception. The End. That's a lazy approach to Christianity. Wouldn't you agree?

Many who see me as immoral and Anti-Christian are supporting an administration that seems VERY anti-poverty and very pro-violence. I see this as a contradiction to values expressed in the New Testament (of course, you may, upon your interpretation, feel free to disagree).

It has been my direct experience that HUGE numbers of Christians have not read in full the book they claim contains our history, future, and ideal moral code. Forgive me if this also strikes me as a lazy quality. That in itself doesn't bother me until people say that I'm mad about this election not because I'm tired of being at war and in debt, but because my 'liberal values see things like RELIGION as old-fashioned, and it offends me that people have VALUES, like not supporting the MURDER of little babies, and by saying the marriage should be the way it's ALWAYS been.' In short, they feel I'm anti-Bush because I'm anti-Christian. In truth, I find Bush to be more anti-Christian than I could dream of. Those professing religion while acting in opposition to it are far more dangerous than those not even in the faith. I find that he has placed America and God in equivalent positions, which seems dangerously close to a false idol. He uses God as a justification to wage war. He praises God 'on the streetcorners' as it were, so all can hear, which Jesus specifically spoke against.

So have you called me anti-Christian? No? Then I wasn't talking to you, was I? If you did, have you read your Bible in full? You have? Then I wasn't calling you lazy, was I?

Ishie

Re Christopher Milton and your "just because..." post - Amen to that!

Why not BLUETOPIA? I see all the states that went blue wanting in. If the state went blue then there are more people who think (I almost put "think like us"...but just "think" actually works better). I like people who think and are not led by the ring in their nose. The violent RTTN's (ring thru the nose) will move to red states soon enough because they will not be able to handle the progressive lifestyle we will make in Bluetopia.

Ishie -

"It has been my direct experience that HUGE numbers of Christians have not read in full the book they claim contains our history, future, and ideal moral code."

I believe this is true. What is your exoerience? I am not being attacking - I am asking. You sound fairly informed. And I am curious. Irregardless, my wife and I (whom you were calling a lazy person - her name is Sarah) are open to new views. Intelligent ones - and yours appears so. Although some people are very eloquent with the written word and I would assume to know anything about you. It is amazing the way noone wants to talk or discuss things without getting mad and slinging mud (my wife and myself included). Why is that? Are we so far apart that there is no way too meet? Are we that far gone?

Do we need two countries? Never a truer thing said in jest. Makes me sad to be an American...even a brand new one.

"I believe this is true. What is your exoerience?"

I'm a former Christian. As a Christian, I found my fellows often quoting things that were misquotes or taken out of context, and occasionally things in Shakespearean plays. They also had no sense of chronology and no knowledge of things in the Bible, often stating things that flat-out weren't true. Since departing the faith, I have had opportunities to speak to MANY Christians, in both hostile and friendly environments. In many cases, they have openly stated they have not read the whole thing (one after a vehement defense of its dead-to-rights accuracy and she hadn't yet made it through Genesis). Many state they know the "gist" of it, and proceed to embark on a journey that allows me to know the position of their pastor or senator, but links to the Bible only in a common usage of the word "Jesus". I've also noticed a trend lately (and Kent Hovind should be tarred and feathered for it) of confusing creationist literature with Biblical quotes.

I have met some Christians who have read the entire Bible. They've typically been occupied largely with Bible study sessions to gain greater depth into what they've read and seem to be decidedly less hostile than many of the others, interestingly enough. I must say though, I have met plenty of "lazy" Christians who were also perfectly nice people. And I am not stating that conservatives are the only ones. I have met plenty of lazy Christians on the other side of the coin, stating things that sound nice but also aren't in the Bible.

From a voting based on Biblical morality thing (which I somewhat disagree with anyway), I think that BOTH sides need to look seriously at this. From a personal perspective, lazy Christians don't bother me unless they're actively making a nuisance of themselves (throwing rocks, screaming in my face, etc).

"Irregardless, my wife and I (whom you were calling a lazy person - her name is Sarah) are open to new views. Intelligent ones - and yours appears so."

Thank you. Hello Sarah. Did I call her lazy or has she not read the Bible? I'm always open to new views. I like to listen to people who aren't shouting. Though a CA liberal (with $9.99 shoes who hates Sex in the City), I, like my sinister android governor, try to decide things on a case to case basis, rather than by what gets me the grand prize in the Hippie Liberal Bake Sale.

"It is amazing the way noone wants to talk or discuss things without getting mad and slinging mud (my wife and myself included). Why is that? Are we so far apart that there is no way too meet? Are we that far gone?"

1. Welcome to the internet. If you think this is bad, try typing "Star Trek sucks" in the wrong place, and you'll probably get death threats.
2. People talking amongst themselves (Coastopians, Bush-ites, Alias fans) tend to be less diplomatic as a whole than they are in mixed company. When they're talking amongst themselves, and the "others" happen into the conversation, it sets up an instant fight. The "others" don't like being maligned and often respond with greater hostility than they generally would, and the "ins" get defensive.
3. With those things, there is a vast divide in this country. I think an obsession on certain issues is exacerbating this. The factions often seem incapable of understanding the other's position at all. I'm guilty of this. I cannot understand the red, not because I think they are a bunch of drunken, gun waving (got one of my own, how's that for liberal?), warmongering hillbillies, but because I know a vast majority of them are not. This means that there is likely a logical motive for their voting decisions, and I, for the life of me, can't figure out what it is. I know some red people. They're nice; they're well balanced; they're not violent. Many take yoga classes (I AM in California). So I don't understand. And they don't understand me.
4. As a pissed off liberal, I'll try and speak for me, not that it necessarily represents my fellow pissed off liberals, but... I feel divided not because "my guy (like I want him) didn't win", but because I'm dead certain the winners do not care about people like me in the least. I have seen too many honest concerns pushed aside as 'special interest groups'. If I felt this administration were truly going to attempt to represent the bulk of America, rather than the slim majority, I would shrug and lick my liberal wounds like I did in 2000, when I didn't feel that this country was horribly divided. I didn't feel depressed or lonely when Bush's win was announced. I feel now like against the wishes of a VERY significant portion of this country, the administration is going to push ahead with whatever they want to do, whether we like it or not. I am concerned about what I feel to be unacceptable liberties taken with the Constitution during the last term, and more unacceptable ones proposed. I am also worried about facing a complete erosion of checks and balances.

"Do we need two countries? Never a truer thing said in jest. Makes me sad to be an American...even a brand new one."

I am very sad to be an American right now... much happier about being a Coastopian, I have to say.

Apologies for the length. BTW if we're cluttering the board too much, feel free to contact me any time at ishie_sancho@yahoo.com. For anyone ELSE out there, I'm also open to discussion email. For anyone wanting to send hate mail, I'm a news administrator and a system operator, which means I guarantee you I've been called worse in about fifteen different languages.

Ishie

Ishie,

Thanks for your insight and honest views. I think we may agree on many things even as we may disagree on others. But then, most of my wifes family (extended) is west coasties with quite liberal views. And the rest are in New England! So I differ with their views, but love them just as much. I still think if the media was less obviously liberal and a good candidate was found things may have been different.

Maybe I will drop you a line - thanks for the invite.

Paul

PS Maybe I am not cut out for the internet - too easy to bash someone else because you can't see them. I did get quite a chuckle about Star Trek. And my wife says hello. She was the one you posted your earlier response to. She is not lazy (can you be with 3 kids?) and she does read the bible. We don't attend study groups and prefer to read it ourselves. But we know those who do, and I would agree with you on that point.

We were batting around a similar idea - but with the name "the "bluenited states of america"

we guys are crazy .. f u all down with the united states it will die in the year 2012

...ahh...umm.. jk..i think...

thats right chicago museums are awesome... yeah, actually, this isn't that bad of an Idea

2012? So specific. Any particular month? I want to know when to clear my calendar.

Paul,
Eh, no one is cut out for the internet, but it beats working. Now who's lazy?

It's funny that you should mention the liberal media. I see it as a conservative media excepting the comedy of errors by CBS. Fox News of course, is second only to the 700 Club. But the others fall in line. They all have a habit of sucking up during press conferences, no matter who's speaking.

I think if we had a liberal media, we wouldn't have this presidency. If Iraq had claimed we posed an imminent threat to them (which we obviously did) and bombed us pre-emptively, we'd have called it a broadscale terrorist attack. When we do it, we're "bringing freedom and democracy". All the excuses we've given for taking over Iraq have fallen flat. No WMDs (except the ones we lost), no links to 9/11, no evidence of wide funding of terrorist cells (why would Islamic fundamentalists associate with an obviously secular dictator?), no 'easy in, easy out, few lives lost', no freedom yet (martial law was just declared), no increased world safety (terrorism is at an all time high; it's only a matter of time before we get nailed again). Every time he changed his story, the media should have been there to tear it apart, or AT LEAST make it as big a deal as Monica-gate?

Nope. And we have money problems now... we're supposed to tough it out because we're at war... but we're at war for no reason only now we're too deep into it to easily pull out.

I think the media has dropped the ball on this presidency. I think they were dropping it with Clinton, not only because of their focus on Monica-gate, but because of their lack of focus on other issues within the presidency that actually mattered, including the bad.

Maybe the media isn't liberal OR conservative. Maybe they're just cowed and weak, more obsessed with pandering to celebrity to get good talk show guests rather than asking hard hitting questions? Of course we have widespread Crossfire phenomena in which the 'media' generally takes two stark raving lunatics from opposing sides and pits them against each other like fighting cocks. That only serves to further the country's division because it helps convince people that everyone on the other side is as bats---insane as the pundits on these shows.

Ishie

I was introduced to this fantastic blog only today and am happy to know that I am not alone in my views. I gladly accept American Coastopia as the homeland of my heart despite its physical non-existence. It is comforting to know that there are people on earth (and in America) who have the greater good at heart. I thought it was a lost cause. I am honestly touched, slightly relieved and a little less fearful than I've been since the despot was re-elected. So here is proof that not only the youth can be "liberal." I may only be 19, but the decisions that are made now will effect the greater part of my life.

America Coastopia, I love you!

Was exhilarated by the long lines at the polls as I stood with my son for his first vote...even though since we live in Northern VA, we figured our vote wouldn't overwhelm the Bush wave....Saddened by the fact that our electorate seems fundamentally uneducated and so easily pushed by fear. Our leaders are filled with fear and now have played upon the fears of the masses. Find it interesting that those of us who were closest to the events of 9/11 find 4 more years of "leadership" more fearful than what Bush et al have put out as truth.

A friend sent an email the other day saying he plans to put a bumper sticker on his car which says:

THE TERRORIST I MOST FEAR
... is in the White House

I am extremely lucky and relieved to live in the far N.W. region of Coastopia. But you know what? It is not far away enough. My daughter has suggested we get out some serious chainsaws and physically remove at least the state of Washington from the coast, then float it down somewhere near Hawaii. We will build a new society far away from the hellish future that W has in mind. God bless Coastopia Island!!

I emigrated to Australia three days before the Iraq War because I was sick of 30+ years of Amerika moving to the religious right and destroying the fabric and foundation of what made America the light of the world for so long. This is the first concept that has any sense of being on the right track for America...the divisions are too strong, too stark to bring harmony ever again. It is no longer one nation, and never will be as long as the silent majority takes power and asserts its "rightness" on everyone else...the notion is so un-American, it's almost satirical...except they have no sense of humor and no sense of irony.
I'm all for Coastopia, and if it ever comes about, I might even think about returning to America...something I have no intention of ever doing given what we've seen.
Hail to Coastopia.

Can Jon Stewart and the Daily Show with us? The people here just don't seem to get it or appreciate it enough, MUCH like the fabulous museums in Chicago and Manhattan....interesting.

I made this shirt and misc stuff for my friends as a way to cope with what happened. We'll work on the uniting thing next month ... for now we need a little comic relief.

Disappointment 2004 T-Shirts (http://www.cafepress.com/lunanina)

It is amazing. We all live in a country where you get to voice these opinions and yet everyone goes to name-calling and cussing each other out.

When people should work together you all want to secede. The only problem with that is how many years before your country starts these talks and secedes. In a couple decades we may have 50 countries instead of states because the easy way is to give up.

If people really stood up for their beliefs, they would realize that running away is just letting the other side win. I am independent because I find both parties to be ridiculous.

When you belong to either party you are expected to agree with everything the party does. Doesn't take brains to be a lemming. It takes guts to be able to admit that maybe the other side does have some good points.

I think the saddest thing in all these posts is talking of bombing states. That shows tremendous disrespect for those who lost their lives on 9/11. It also puts you in the same category as those responsible for 9/11.

I guess you all have forgotten how tragic it really was.

Hey, I live in Texas. How would you like to faithfully vote while knowing full well that your vote doesn't count. And what's with Kerry ceding the election before the votes are counted? I say let's just run all the red necks out of the best locatiions and force them all to live in the "heartland." We then put a large, Israeli-style fence around it and let them procreate to their hearts' content.

Sniff, sniff. We'll miss you. Will Babs be your queen?

Sounds OK to me but remember - we (red) have 90% of the guns and 85% of the mil bases......nuff said

AMERICAN COASTOPIA netizens you had better look county by county in your blue Shangri-La and you will soon realize you are nearly surrounded by red with the sea being your only real exit.

You should think again about the land mass of your new country. Before you start taking every "blue state" with you, have a look at the true profile, county by county, of the states you are claiming as your own. Appears a left-wing New Yorker need only travel Upstate to find the Bush supporters you seem to despise....and a Californian need only turn from the coastline to find those who support a return to moral decency in this great America. Cut and paste the following to your browser:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

As a conservative teenager from the bible belt, i hope u do leave... i would consider it good ridance. i wouldnt have to see married homosexuals walkin down the aisles at our walmarts anymore and i wouldnt have to worry about everyone creating a big stink just because god (yes! i did say the 'g' word) is mentioned in a text book. we would have conservative judges, conservative congressmen, and conservative presidents. and even though i would be said to see the tarheels go.. i would gladly give them up to get rid of 60-80% of the nation's liberals.

Suggestion to jared p.keaton: go to DUKE.

No one seriously even considering the asylum thing?? Haven't you even thought for a minute about having millions of radical anti-American Muslims amongst you? Invited in, no less....Not joking folks -- I have no problem at all with other religions and belief systems, I just happen to not like those whose stated aim is to eradicate all who are not like them. Of course, the natural place for them to start that eradication would be in the very Heartland, wouldn't you say? what with all those rabid Evangelicals. But wait! They have all those guns and mil. bases, as stated above -- well, I guess the're gonna' need them.
By the way, do you think it's any coincidence that the centers of higher learning, financial centers, etc., are mostly in the Blue States?? Frankly, the Reds have shown themselves to be simplistic (dumb) morons.... (to this very day, they're still arguing for Creationism! Get a clue, people!!) If you had an open mind at all, had any education at all, you would know that the Bible was written by MAN -- many men -- over centuries, and most with some political or social agenda of their own (clue: reading history might also help you to understand this). It was never meant to be taken LITERALLY, fools !! --and you would know this if you ever read anything ELSE (which might also broaden your minds, but yo', that would threaten your world, wouldn't it?.)

Did you ever hear that expression, "religion is the opiate of the people"? Whether it's radical Christianity, or radical Islam, it's dangerous if people don't learn to THINK FOR THEMSELVES, but lazily fall back into a religion that does the thinking for them ("It's so because God/Buddha/Ishtar/(Daddy)" says so!!" For heaven's sake, learn to think for yourselves!!!!

I live in Europe, but I lived for more than 10 years in New York.
I feel like a newyorker. I would not go to the current USA, but to the Coastopia!!
Please, secede and come back to be the great and plentyfull nation where I fall in love, where I study and played.
More than ever you need to reclaim the beautiful america we all have in our minds, not the Bush idea about what's right or wrong!!

Please, do it soon, you can count on me.
carlos

I highly recommend that everyone read "Bush On The Couch: Inside the Mind of the President". It will scare the shit out of most people in the Blue States.

People in the Red States, of course, just won't "get" it. Or they won't know what to think about it until Fox/Fascist News tells them what to think.

If you're so dissatisfied living here in the greatest Country in the world, then pack your bags and get out. Unless you've picked up a rifle and served your Country, defending the very freedom that allows you to write such droll, then you should quit you bitchin. Of course your vote counts, everyone’s' vote counts, all 100+ million of them. However, the majority has spoken, deal with it. If you are unsatisfied, do something productive about it besides posting treasonous messages on the internet. And there's no way you can throw stones at Bush's/Cheney's service to the Country when you know of Kerry's most despicable acts...selling out his Countrymen. Frankly I surprised at how the moral issues of gay marriage, abortion, etc were at the top of the list with terrorism down below-those issues are society driven and should be addressed at the core of America’s families, not in the Whitehouse. What good is a gay marriage if you have to live in fear of the dirty bomb? You need to focus on Hollywood’s ‘marriages of convenience’ and ‘divorce of the day’ and the fall of the sanctity of marriage as well as the complete failure of the ‘family unit’ to stay strong and to raise children in a loving environment with strong moral fiber and character…I could go on an on. By the way remember the recession that Bush inherited from your man Clinton, whose major claim to fame was disgracing the Office of the President, not to mention significantly diminishing the future capability of the US military and sending the economy into a tail spin. But never mind that, it’s all about me right? Me me me me. Don’t worry, someone will stand the watch for you while you worry about yourself...

"Istandthewatch" ..... Did someone on Fox/Fascist News Channel tell you to say that?

So .....all those moralistic, gun-toting rednecks who wanted Bush and his war so badly, why aren't they all running to enlist and defend their country?? (By the way, I did serve, asshole.... and Kerry did us a favor!)

Secession. Yeah, that worked out great last time. Crack an history books lately?
And do you really believe that Iowa has enough produce to feed you all? Starvation and rioting will claim far more lives than our inevitable "redneck" militia/armies ever could. Personally, if I had to pick a winner of the New Civil War, I'd choose a hillbilly with a sawed-off over a skeet-shooting pansy any day of the week (and twice on Sunday). If you want to be on a losing team twice, fine by me.
Do you really believe the U.S. government, your government, would stand by idly and let secession occur? I realize this post stems from being sore about your pony losing the Presidential race, but if your candidate couldn't prevail against a retard, what does that say about your candidate?
Oh wait. This post must be a joke in which some readers were too bitter and dense to see the humor. Now I understand (it takes me a bit longer, as I am an uncultured redneck).
~

If you're so dissatisfied living here in the greatest Country in the world, then pack your bags and get out.

Why? I'm in Coastopia already. Much of your "greatest country in the world" already wants nothing to do with California, so maybe we should leave. We're the seventh strongest economy in the world. I think we'll do just fine.

"Unless you've picked up a rifle and served your Country, defending the very freedom that allows you to write such droll, then you should quit you bitchin."

My family has fought to defend this country; they are not pro-Bush. Since I believe in freedom and don't believe in enforcing "US Supremacy" on nations, I find this war to be very anti-freedom. Why would I sign up to fight a war I disagree with? Terrorists are one thing. But if I am invading a country, and someone in that country is shooting at me, how am I supposed to kill them when I don't think I should be there in the first place, knowing that if an invading soldier came through my neighborhood, I'd shoot at him? It's wrong.

"Of course your vote counts, everyone’s' vote counts, all 100+ million of them. However, the majority has spoken, deal with it."

Spoken like someone doesn't understand the true principles of this country's REPUBLIC. "Majority rules" is not how this country was supposed to run. The Constitution and checks and balances supposedly protects people from a mob mentality majority. When you strip that away, you can allow anything so long as you can get 51% of the country to support it. Maybe you need to retake that 9th grade civics class?

"And there's no way you can throw stones at Bush's/Cheney's service to the Country"

Whoa there... what service to the country? They're chickenhawks. They have no trouble sending other people's kids into war while they've never lifted a finger themselves.

"when you know of Kerry's most despicable acts...selling out his Countrymen."

Ahh... so, if you fight for this country and then, AFTER your service, find the fight horrific (as many people in Vietnam did) and vocalize it, you're despicable. Nice double standard. He's not Jane Fonda. He did his tour. He saw how awful things were. We were not blameless in Vietnam.

"What good is a gay marriage if you have to live in fear of the dirty bomb?"

I was less concerned about the dirty bomb before Bush got everyone in the world incredibly pissed off at us. What people seem to fail to recognize is how BIG this country is. You cannot possibly defend all of it all the time. Israel has one of the scariest police forces in the world, they're TINY, and even they can't prevent attacks. You think with a country this size with this many people, we can?

"You need to focus on Hollywood’s ‘marriages of convenience’ and ‘divorce of the day’ and the fall of the sanctity of marriage as well as the complete failure of the ‘family unit’ to stay strong and to raise children in a loving environment with strong moral fiber and character…"

Agreed. Of course that would require many in the "Majority, deal with it" amend their behavior, which they don't want to do. So they ponit to gay marriage to distract attention from their own contribution to 'moral decay'. If people focus on two men who love each other (horrors!), maybe they won't notice you doing your secretary.

"I could go on an on. By the way remember the recession that Bush inherited from your man Clinton, whose major claim to fame was disgracing the Office of the President,"

What won't you people blame Clinton for? I would prefer a sleaze who lies about oral sex than a murderer any day. Clinton also had the biggest budget surplus we've ever seen and had the best diplomatic status, increasing our position in the world. Bush has the biggest deficit. That is inexcusable. Do you think that vomiting money into this Iraq war is honestly helping our economy or that it's so bad because Clinton four years ago? Get real.

"But never mind that, it’s all about me right? Me me me me. Don’t worry, someone will stand the watch for you while you worry about yourself..."

Don't do me any favors. It's not all about me. I'm not gay. I'm not at high risk of terrorism. I wouldn't get an abortion. I'm a white, blonde female which means when the Republicans are profiling terrorists, I'm at the bottom of the list. I don't have any children for them to draft or force religion on, and as a girl, since I don't have to register, they can't draft me directly. I have a job. It's not a great job, but considering our economy, I'm grateful to have it (no, not to Bush, either).

What I am is sick of living in a country which has abandoned the attempt to ally to its original values (even if it often hasn't practiced them) and now sticks itself in this isolated, jingoistic lonely little corner of the world daring anyone to look at them the wrong way. I am sick of watching other people die (including our troops!!) for mistakes the administration has made while watching them claim they've made no mistakes. I'm tired of watching gay friends treated like lesser citizens when they have more dutiful and loving relationships than almost any straight person I know. I'm tired of wondering when the terrorists are going to hit us again (their recruitment is WAY up, by the way), not because *I'm* going to get killed, but because I don't like to watch people die and monuments fall.

So please, don't "stand the watch" for me. Stand the watch for yourself, so you can feel self righteous and cocky about telling other people how they should feel. SOME of us don't like having the money we earn going to terrorize others rather than using it to make our troubled country great. Perhaps you feel differently.

Ishie

Your map bums me out. It belies the fact that very close to half of us here in the great backwater did NOT vote for Bush, and also ignores the equally signigficant fact that nearly half of you on the enlightened coasts did!

Please don't be so quick to divide us.

It's obvious but often overlooked, that not everyone in the "red" states votes Republican or supports Bush. I certainly don't and I am a lifelong Oklahoman.

While it's certainly tough to know that the majority of the country would relegate me to second class citizen and it would be so much easier to live in a "friendly" area of the country, I feel compelled to stay here and be who I am. Not a role model, not a designated representative, but just a guy who is gay and trying to live his life.

Someone has to be here to remind others that there is another point of view, a different belief about how we fit into the world. There are so many of us, we should be able to make a difference. That's my goal.

Please remember us when you (unintentionally, I'm sure) dismiss those in the "red" states or the middle of the country.

Please take Michigan. We're a BLUE state, including lots of blue water and great universitys. (I don't care what my sister/fellow citzens at U of M say, we at Michigan State are going too...)

Please take Michigan. We're a BLUE state, including lots of blue water and great universitys. (I don't care what my sister/fellow citzens at U of M say, we at Michigan State are going too...)

Ishtar,

Glad I solicited such a long post! Put a smile on my face for the rest of the day. We could joust back-n-forth indefinitely, but I will go back to my job because that takes precedence. I was amazed by this blog when it was forwarded to me - I've said my peace - now I'll move on to reality. Feel free to say whatever you want about me now that I'm gone. Good luck to you in your quest to find a decent country.

Great minds think alike! You two need to join forces!

http://americanunion.blogspot.com

Sorry there is legislation preventing any states from seceding which includes any land thereof...sorry liberals you cannot have any imaginary nation....buh-bye

Dumb, ass when we secede, we will not be seeking legislation or permission.

Felicia, I encourage you to read The Case for a Creator, by Lee Strobel. I'd also suggest reading the book of Romans in the New Testament. I'm certainly not going to preach, but I do hope you find that the Bible is relevant today, and that God is real and has a purpose for each of us. Maybe we should all set political differences aside and focus on more important issues that have eternal significance. God bless.

uuuuuhhhhhhhh, can key west join you guys. liberate the keys, you need a tropical paradise, and us parrotheads are sick of the bush bros.

thanx

Please, please "istandthewatch" and "Ishtar" (Ishie) stop your fighting.

I propose a remedial action plan:

istandthewatch- you hire Ishie as your "secretary" (see Ishie's post), pay her well and then maybe you can get to, quote, "do her" (she's not gay- read her post).

And we can all go back to being one big happy country! With Republicans on top of course......

You crybaby leftists, go on and seceed. We'd LOVE to be rid of you! Be sure to take D.C. with you. As has happened with your other centers of blueness, you're currently turning Mexifornia into a political/social toilet. Can't blame its coming demise on us. I predict that within a generation you'll be borrowing heavily from our hugely successful economic powerhouse because 90% of your population will be homeless and constantly rioting for bread and circuses.

Could you please include the northern half of Ohio? Water is plentiful and so are Democrats and others that don't think only of themselves. Let the Cincinnatians have the muddy, polluted Ohio River. They want it that way! They like it that way! Dirty water, dirty air- good for the economy and corporate polluters. If only Coastopia were real....

istandthewatch- you hire Ishie as your "secretary" (see Ishie's post), pay her well and then maybe you can get to, quote, "do her" (she's not gay- read her post).
---------

Thus proving there's more than one way to get carpal tunnel syndrome.

If I'm to be paid well, can I just skip the secretarial part and buzz over to Nevada to get the license? Boyfriend might get miffed though...

Ishie

Subject to a few modifications -- GREAT!

1) You can't have Iowa -- check the map again -- it went RED. You can, however, bus your folks out of the state into the coastal reaches. No food -- tough. Maybe we'll sell you some.

2) I don't believe in collective punishment -- you can't have the Red counties in California, Oregon, Washington or Pennsylvania. You are limited to a strip of land about 100 miles wide along the entire length of the Pacific Coast -- everything else went Red -- check the county results map. Plus, the Amish don't support gay marriage -- you only get about 5% of the Pennsylvania landmass.

3) We get to bus our folks out of Wisconsin, upper New York and New Hampshire -- again, that collective punishment thing. However, the rest of New England is yours for the taking.

Now you just have to fool the Canadians into thinking it would be a good idea to take in a whole boatload of useful idiots like yourselves.....

We here at LACMA are happy to be living in America Coastopia!!!!
I'm so happy to finally feel like a true citizen.
I want a T-Shirt!!!!!

I'm in Florida and so you know...Dade and Broward counties voted for Kerry...can't we come too????? Please don't leave South Florida out...you can leave Central and North with the USA but include us with America Coastopia...we have a nice beach to offer... :)

Are you taking your ball and going home?????

We all effect the world around us!

You rant and rave but do you do anything? Do you inconvenience yourself to help another? Are you wrapped up in yourself?

Please Leave!

Years ago on Earth Day, They created enough trash that it took three days to cart it away. We don't need more hotair speechs form the do nothing people.

Just try to help someone today! Nothing hard....MAYBE JUST A KIND WORD, HOLD A DOOR FOR SOMEONE, etc....you get the idea.....

If you can't, PLEASE LEAVE because the majority has spoken whether right or wrong!!!!!

President Kennedy said "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". If the country is going the wrong way, WHY DON"T YOU RUN FOR SOMETHING and give us your leadership skills!!!! STOP WHINING YOU BUNCH OF IMMATURE CHILDREN! Please Leave!!!

TFMK

Hmm... I often inconvenience myself to help others. I even give money to people who need it without convincing myself they're going to use it to buy drugs, yelling at them to get a job, or refusing to donate on the grounds that I'm "contributing to a welfare state".

I could be wrong, but you make it sound like the majority has spoken on doing nice things for other people? I must have missed the "random acts of kindness" proposition. Damn butterfly ballots.

To be perfectly honest, while there is a difference in where the efforts go, I have seen fairly equal charitability among "conservatives" and "liberals".

Ishie

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/bommer/blue.html This is a great web page for you bleading heart losers. Take a shower, get a job and wake up and smell the coffe...oh, I mean vanilla latte. Get a life and try to make a difference. I wish you the very best with the Canadian health care system.

I just had to put in my two cents regarding statement that Bush is "VERY anti-poverty and very pro-violence. I see this as a contradiction to values expressed in the New Testament"

Is the New Testament pro-poverty?

BTW, Bush didn't declare war: al-Qaida did, on September 11, 2001. Remember? They didn't distinguish between Republicans, Democrats, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Homosexuals or Heterosexuals. Nearly 3000 people were presumed dead as a result.

JK never promised to extradite troops from Iraq. In fact, he has historically supported US involvement:

1997 “Should the resolve of our allies wane, the United States must not lose its resolve to take action.” He further warned that if Saddam Hussein were not held to account for violation of UN resolutions, some future conflict would have “greater consequence.”

1998 “I think there is a disconnect between the depth of the threat that Saddam Hussein presents to the world and what we are at the moment talking about doing ... we have to be prepared to go the full distance, which is to do everything possible to disrupt his regime and to encourage the forces of democracy....

2003 “If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community`s already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act.”

2004 (January) “Saddam Hussein took us to war once before. In that war, young Americans were killed. He went to war in order to take over the oil fields. It wasn`t just an invasion of Kuwait. He was heading for the oil fields of Saudi Arabia. And that would have had a profound effect on the security of the United States.

I won’t say that $ isn’t behind the war in Iraq, but Iraq had the potential to pose a WW threat (as does N Korea) and the track record of mass murder (estimates from Human Rights Watch indicate as many as 290,000 Iraqis were killed by Saddam during his reign, with 100,000 Kurds slaughtered in 1988.) No I don’t think we’re fighting a war to liberate Iraq, but I don’t think we can ignore threats from overseas.

So…Coastopia, what’s your solution?

Hey,

Please take Wisconsin in Coastopia, too!! We have a lot of coast line, and we went blue this time around... If we could join coastopia, I'm sure it would convince the reactionaries here to move to the other America, the one I am sick of being identified with.

Hey all you liberal pussies in Coastopia, forget the foo foo and latte, how about a nice steaming cup of shut the fuck up. The next time some terrorist asshole attempts to, or actually succeeds in committing a terrorist act on Coastopian soil (your the likely target) and your lives are disrupted, why don't you call on the president of Coastopia to come to your defense. I realize that for some of you Coastopia is only a state of mind, while others really believe this shit could happen. Either way, don't call John Kerry to bail you out, he couldn't have helped you even if he had been elected president... a traitor with no backbone. Don't worry though, there are a lot of my kind out there in the Hinterland and throughout Coastopia (the ones with the guns, the backbone and the military experience) that won't let you bleeding heart liberal-minded artsy fartsy types ruin this country with your immoral values. You are weak. You either take it up the ass with a smile on your face or condone those that do. If the Coastopian crowd had been running the country at the outset of WWII, we'd all be speaking German today. You peaceniks are a bunch of whining, sniveling, pansies. The next time you see some poor soul on TV about to be be-headed, remember that the best defense is a good offense. You must seek out evil and destroy evil on its own turf, before it engulfs you on yours. Surely you panty waisted homos can remember the class bully beating the crap out of you during recess. You couldn't reason with him and you were terrified. All you wanted to do was hide in an imaginary place where everything was wonderful and without pain. In reality, it took someone bigger and meaner, on the side of good, to kick the everloving shit out of him before he stopped being the bully. That's where I am coming from. You can't let the bullies of the world scare you off and you cannot hide your head in the land of fairies. If there are any of you Coastopians out there that would like to reconsider your weak minded position and join us in the fight for truth, justice and the American way then stand tall behind our president and support him. You liberal freaks that would rather stagnate in Coastopian dogma, stay out of the way and let us real Americans fight your battles for you. There are a bunch of real Americans overseas right now fighting your battles so that you can sit around in your bathrobes and sip your latte. They are young warriors, my son is one, who believe in the moral values that were behind the relection of "W". Someday these young men and women will assume the role of America's military, politcal and business leaders. All the while, the citizens of Coastopia will still be wondering why their candidate lost, why they are so unhappy and unfortunately, continue to wallow in their collective self pity down in the heartland of Coastopia.

Isn't it cool the moral values thing? I love anyone who has the balls to be anti-abortion and pro war. Christians are so wonderfully hypocritical. Thou Shalt Not Kill...well...surely god didn't mean ALL the time. I mean...surely it's okay sometimes, right? I'm not saying I don't think war is right, because well, I'm not Christian. For those of you out there who are bible thumpers and yet war mongers? What the heck? Do you read the book you "live your life by"? When is the bible belt going to realize they're a bunch of frigging posers.

For the record, conservative zealots, my state voted for "dubbuya". God help us all.

As for the LIBERAL states being targets? BULL! The target is AMERICA and the fact that AMERICA always LOOOOOVES to get into everybody's crap. Look at us now. Do we REALLY think invading another country is going to stop terrorists? THIS IS PRECISELY THE ACTIVITIES THAT CAUSE THEM TO ATTACK US!!!

In the immortal words of homer...SAVE ME JEEBAS!!

"Is the New Testament pro-poverty?"

It's pro helping the poor, and doesn't seem to have high favor of the rich.

"BTW, Bush didn't declare war: al-Qaida did, on September 11, 2001. Remember?"

Actually, they both did, and I wasn't anti-war on Afghanistan since they were actively harboring the terrorists, remember?

Bush declared war on Iraq. For no real reason. Even the US government has admitted finding no links to al-Qaeda (though I'm sure there are plenty now!). Being attacked does not justify attacking other people. If a fundamentalist Christian kills my kid, I do not have the right to find some liberal Christian who had nothing to do with it who just happens to be a complete a-hole (Saddam's regime was hardly fundie Islam. He paid lip service to the religion, but was the stereotype of a generic secular dictator) and bash him in the skull with a bat.

If Bush is so intent on killing people, why didn't he keep the bulk of troops in Afghanistan to finish off Osama (who, by his latest video is looking not only alive, but healthier). And if he really wants to find the source of terror, maybe he needs to hold his Saudi buddies a little more accountable. The vast majority of the 9/11 suicide bombers (remember them?) were Saudis.

"Nearly 3000 people were presumed dead as a result."

And this is how Bush attempted to play us to distract attention from the real killers to invade Iraq. Some of us remember 9/11 well enough to remember whodunit.

"JK never promised to extradite troops from Iraq. In fact, he has historically supported US involvement:"

He's primarily laid down for the president, as has the rest of congress. Do I approve of this? Heck no, and I think the Democrats were smoking crack to put up such a weak bunch of candidates. I would not, however, use my ire at that weakness to attempt to malign a war hero, particularly when I have never fought.

"Iraq had the potential to pose a WW threat (as does N Korea)"

You're comparing Iraq's potential to NK??? Even when we went in the first time, they didn't pose a "World Wide Threat". They posed a threat to their immediate neighbors, which is not good, but is also unique to probably over half the countries on earth. If we want to look at a potentially scary conflict between countries with dirty nuclear bombs, let's look at India and Pakistan?

"and the track record of mass murder (estimates from Human Rights Watch indicate as many as 290,000 Iraqis were killed by Saddam during his reign, with 100,000 Kurds slaughtered in 1988.)"

The Republicans have increased trade relations vastly with China while essentially ignoring their human rights records. How many people has the Chinese government slaughtered?

Ishie

Hey Uncle Jed, shouldn't you still be huddled in your Y2K bunker? Those guns aren't going to stockpile themselves! Dammit man, get with the program! Any second now the commie hoards (sponsored from within the treachery of Coastopia) are going to come swarming over the hills, and you're risking an internet connection?? That'll tell them where the base is!!! They're going to come right to us and take our frigging Bibles, are you mad!?

How the heck can you support Bush anyway? That little namby pamby ain't never done a day of fighting in his life and he's made gestures to support civil unions! He's just as much of a pinko as that Fonda-ite Kerry!

GOD bless America (And no place else!!)

Ishie (Whew, sorry, Pat Robertson used his Satanic powers to speak through me for a second)

See ya. Can't wait for you to go and bury yourself in your own failing socialism. Then when you are broke and without a menas to produce anything we'll nuke you when you inevitibly attempt to attack us for "stealing" all the good natural resources in America unaware that it is your own system of govt. that has plunged you into economic darkness. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. George W. Bush won. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

I feel better now.

Ha, that's really funny. Good luck--we've got all the guns.

I, also, pledge allegiance to Coastopia. Unfortunately, I currently reside in Winston-Salem, NC, but I am originally from California.

To "badbobusnret", "MD_DD_USN", "Real American" (two sailors, who are probably gay, and one imbecile who actually believes the title that he uses), et al: Good for you that you actually THINK you won the election! It speaks toward your delusion. As for guns and military bases being in the red states, that assumes that the people manning them are Bush supporters, and thus lacking the mental capacity to know how to use them! To "Jared": If you are such a devout Christian, for Christ's sake learn to capitilize the word "God"!

For far better comments directed at these "Americans", refer to my daughter "Ishie's" posts on this site!

LONG LIVE COASTOPIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dan

The "Made in USA" stamp on the preview of the Coastopia T-shirt made me laugh.

I live in Eastern Washington state and boy howdy, some people here are fucking morons (wait, did I just say, "boy howdy"? I've lived here too long). Anyway, you might want to consider kicking Spokane (and the über-stupid City of Spokane Valley) out.

That is the biggest bunch of bullshit I have ever seen. If the liberal idiots did secede from America, they would not be able to call themselves Americans. And how about this thought? If the libs did secede, how would they defend themselves? Liberals are the ones that want no one in America to have guns or use violence to enforce anything. The first time the idiots pissed the True Americans off, the True Americans would quickly overrun the liberals, pimp-slap them, and destroy any resistence. Trust me, a secession from the "True America" would eventually end in a reunification and the liberals looking as stupid as they did after the election.
Maybe instead of Coastopia, you should call yourselves New France. Simply pathetic.

"Moby"--

I wonder why you needed to feel better in the first place? Isn't the whole world going your way? Aren't you "totally psyched"? Can't you just *not even wait* for the next four years to start? Whoops, wow, it's already started! Geez. Now I feel better because--well, because someone like you is gonna look out for me. I'm afraid of guns--eeek! I juss wanna ignore reality and stay inside and read philosophy books.

But--wait! Plato says, Since the key to the success of the whole is the wisdom of the rulers who make decisions for the entire city, the perfect society will occur only when kings become philosophers or philosophers are made kings. For only those with a philosophical temperament are competent to judge between what merely seems to be the case and what really is. (Republic 473d) And that makes me think of those weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that SEEMED to be there, but actually WEREN'T. (funny how no one's disputing that). Soooo, THAT makes me feel like B**h really couldn't, you kno,w judge what merely SEEMED to be the case, and what WAS. And now we're in a world of shit because of his gross lack of judgment...

But I guess I don't know enough because I've never picked up a rifle to defend this country...but wait...I thought B**h/Cheney/Ashcroft/Rove hadn't either...but ah guess ah juss don't know...

BTW Uncle Jeb--did you happen to notice that people started getting beheaded on TV right about a year AFTER the US invaded Iraq? Interesting, idn't it?

If the libs did secede, how would they defend themselves?
--------
My S&W 9mm with the hollow points (avoids capping the neighbors) does pretty well. I've got dead aim accuracy with the thing too. My mommy gave it to me; my daddy taught me (which reminds me, hi dad!). How's that for family values? Believing everything you read about libbies could be daaaangerous.

Ishie

Well, under the New France, your prized possession would be taken away. Stereotypes are rooted in truth and I am quite certain that most liberals would never even own a gun, so in turn, I would think that it would quite easy to overrun the New France.

New France? I'm in Coastopia. Muslim girls can wear headscarves here.

"Stereotypes are rooted in truth and I am quite certain that most liberals would never even own a gun.."

So then should we believe conservatives really ARE ignorant Bible-thumping inbred hicks? Because I really don't think they all are, but if stereotypes are rooted in truth...

Besides, why would they want to 'overrun' us? I thought they wanted us to leave? Or are they just planning to invade us, bomb us and strip our resources... they certainly seem good at that.

Hi Ishie,
Thanks for sharing your opinions. I really want to know your opinion on how we address terrorism, foreign policy, threats from foreign countries (be they chemical, biological or nuclear.)

Admittedly, comparing Iraq to NK is a stretch, but my point is: when we make a stand and when do we retreat into our safe little cave and ignore the rest of the world? I don't want America to be the world's police, but ignoring issues abroad only brings them home.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic with the whole "pro-poverty" thing. I don't think anyone is "pro-poverty". The poorer we are as individuals, the more dependent we become on the gov't.

L

i hereby leave all of my grocery discount club cards, my costco card, and my amusement park annual passes to the war-mongering, ethnic butchering, hypocrisy-living, gay-bashing, rights-taking assholes in the red states in exchange for sanctuary.

thank you.

Hey,
Not all of Oregon will get to secede. You can have Portland, Salem & Eugene.

Bye

Hiya Liza,

"I really want to know your opinion on how we address terrorism,"

1. Collect evidence.
2. Identify real perps, including kingpins (yes, post 9/11, I will grudgingly admit the admin was doing a pretty damn good job at this... the train derailed somewhere)
3. Infiltrate organization if conceivable to identify methods and plans
4. Once everything is in place, send in special forces and unleash a firestorm of whoopass on some terrorists.
5. IF you have undeniable proof either of potential terrorist threats or proof of those committed AND the government of a country is harboring them, again, send in the special forces. If the government gets wise and interferes, shoot them.
6. Repeat as necessary.
7. For those captured, caught in country and 'suspected' for being on no fly lists, afford them the rights of all people in potential hassles with the law. There have been countless innocent people terrorized, strip searched, and held indefinitely because the anti-terror laws circumvent the Constitution. This isn't a soft-on-terror position. This is a soft-on-people-who-might-not-be-guilty position. Considering we afford these rights to people we suspect of raping and murdering children?
8. Don't arbitrarily bomb people.
9. When in a country you suspect of being hostile, don't lose mass quantities of weapons.
10. Don't give money and weapons to people who might support terrorism just because they've agreed to help you with other people you suspect of terrorism.

I'm all for kicking the living crap out of terrorists. But we invaded a country that has never technically done anything directly to us, and hasn't done anything remotely connected to us in ten years.

"foreign policy,"

1. Stop pissing off all our allies.
2. Stop telling our allies they'd all be speaking German if it weren't for us in dubyadubyatwo.
3. Get out of the Israeli-Palestine conflict. Both sides are acting horrendously. Neither needs more money for weapons.
4. Stop telling other countries what to do.
5. Be consistent. If you are cracking down on terror, don't exclude your oil buddies when they're the worst ones. If you're striking against human rights violations, strike against all of them.
6. Require American tourists to take diplomacy classes before they're allowed to go overseas.
7. If you're going to spend a lot of money in other countries, spend more on AIDS research than you do on warfare.

"threats from foreign countries (be they chemical, biological or nuclear.)"

Depends. Though I hate to sound like the Shrub, I think different tactics are required for different threats. Isolated terrorist threats can be taken out. NK requires some caution. I think they are one of the most dangerous threats, but active warfare with NK would be a horrible idea.

"I don't want America to be the world's police, but ignoring issues abroad only brings them home."

We shouldn't ignore issues, which is funny because Americans tend to be more ignorant of world affairs than most countries. Check out the news in other countries compared to ours or just look at how many foreigners can name more of our political officials than we can. What we can't do is jump both feet into foreign issues with cowboy hats on stating no one can stop us. We need to act from a position of diplomacy and work as a PART of the world community, not as "the best damned country on earth".

"Sorry, I was being sarcastic with the whole "pro-poverty" thing."

Yeah, I phrased that poorly. I was essentially thinking of all of Jesus' "give up your worldy posessions and follow the Lord" quotes and tried to picture how Cheney would respond if some middle eastern looking guy wandered up to him and told him to do so.

Another long one!! Such a quiet day at work!

Ishie

If those of you on the left are so intellectually superior to us redneck rubes and Jesus freaks, may I make a suggestion?

How about we institute a brief 20 question aptitude test before citizens are allowed to vote?

Somehow I think your inner-city constituents would fail miserably...

"war-mongering, racist, homophobic, jesus-freaked, sexist, selfish, small-picture seeing, Mother Earth raping, Bush run country I am sad to call America.

"i hereby leave all of my grocery discount club cards, my costco card, and my amusement park annual passes to the war-mongering, ethnic butchering, hypocrisy-living, gay-bashing, rights-taking assholes in the red states in exchange for sanctuary."

I live in Pa, technically your color but county, by county more blue hue. I thought most liberals were open-minded? I have actually agreed with many intelligent, forward thinking, issue-minded things said here. I am a moderate conservative. I am a ficsal conservative (meaning, when I work for my money, and I do, then, yes I believe I should get to keep most of it. I believe I should pay my share and that share should increase if I make more. I believe that my money is better left in my hands than my governments and that I will make wiser choices with my future). I am also socially liberal on most issues. I have not always been, but have become more so as I have evolved as a person. I am a christian with a deep and personal faith in god and I try to act upon that with my words and my actions towards my neighbors (red or blue: rich or poor; educated or not; gay or straight). I believe in abortion as a womans right. A choice she must make and live with (I have) but I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control (and it is for some - I have seen it) nor do I feel it should be confined to back alleys and butchers as in the past. I am against partial birth abortion and will never be convinced otherwise. I will not argue with anyone about it but will not press my views on you either. I believe that gay people should have legal unions and be given rights but as of yet I am not sure how I work my church into that. I have been to gay ceremonies and have many homosexual friends. I don't think of them as having a choice in the matter.

So:

I am not homophobic
I am not jesus-freaked (what a strange choice)
I am not a sexist
I am not slefish
I have never looked at a small picture in my life
I have never raped mother earth
I have never mongered war
I have never butchered an ethnic
I have lived in hypocrisy at times (are you so sure you have not?)
I have never bashed a gay
I have never taken a right
And noone has ever referred to me as an a-hole.

I will not sink to your level. You are no better than those you hate. Are you so blind that you do not see fault amoungst your own? it is the human condition. I see fault amoungst those who have aligned with me. I see good in those who have not. I don't choose anger. It is a fruitless exercise that lands people in trouble and robs them of the joys in life no matter how big or small. I find joy in rising early and watching the sunrise, listening to my children walk down the steps, hearing my daughter sing, the solitude I find in church after the pews are empty, walking through the woods with my family. Would you like to label me? I have children - of course the future frightens me. Choosing hate and anger solves nothing. I choose action - positive action.

I don't blindly believe in everything I am told about this party or that party, about this group of people or that, about what this passage in the bible is "supposed" to mean to me, about what it means to be faithful, to be moral. Those are choice of the soul, not a political party.

I love it, I love it. American Coastopia!! We need a song, and a flag! This must be what the founding father’s felt when they signed the declaration of independence (who by the way must be rolling over in their graves to see the cretins that are running the US now) I am a Marylander, so I expect a big influx of refugees from Northern Virginia, they will being fleeing the Redstarts in droves.

http://zapatopi.net/cascadia.html

Check out this site that has been around for a while.

Blah, blah, blah. Alas, yet another reason that this conservative Democrat has felt that his party has been hijacked by the far left.

I guess in one way, secession would be a good thing. Let the Liberals have their own country. This way, the rest of US could declare war and summarily put down the rebellion once and for all. Sign me up for the 1st Ohio Conservative Regiment! ;-) Makes as much sense as all the excuses, half-truths, and mistortions of fact that the Liberals have been tossing out.

Look, get over the 2000 Election. Dubya won the 2004 Election straight away. Stop the whining already. Haven't you got enough cheese to go with it yet?

Is it not true that Blue States pay out more federal taxes and Red States are the recipient of a higher rate of the Federal $$?

I work in Social Services and folks from Red States actually migrate to Blue States that offer more services in regard to Healthcare.

On another note, We gotta let Minnesota in.

The migration here from there has been going on for years. Can I propose that we will honor the Aboriginal Nations within Coastopia for real?

^ Listen to the man! Minnesota deserves to be on that map. We have an abundance of water and liberals.

Delighted to find this site. I woke up on the day after the election with the same thought.

Secession, even virtual secession, gives us the potential for a vision--what is it exactly we are working towards? What kind of country do we want?

And, do we want to take the same hate-mongering attitudes that we accuse the other side of with us? In an effort to hear what "the other side" has to say, I have been flipping back and forth between liberal and conservative talk shows on the radio (okay, so call me a flip-flop)--the content is different, but the emotional tone is the same on both sides: "it's us vs them, good vs. evil, it's all THEIR fault (and where have we heard THAT before?)

Let's not trash the conservatives for looking for
their version of "moral values" in a dark and scary time..let's, as progressives, look within ourselves and find our own. I have been just as guilty of Bush bashing as the next person, but frankly, I'm ready to move on to the next phase. I don't want to spend my time reacting against Bush or any other version of the "evil them"--I want to begin constructing something positive. Coastopia. It has a nice ring to it. But perhaps we can even be a virtual country, without the limits of geography. Why think within an old territorial paradigm? That has only brought wars and bloodshed in the past. Perhaps there is another way of defining country....

I am in Kansas. It is SO REFRESHING to read the posts of people who have a brain and some capacity to use it beyond what their bible and Rush Limbaugh allows. Please I beg you.Accept the petition of myself and my son (I'm a single Dad) for asylum in Coastopia.

Phew, what a relief!!!! All our close friends have been gathering up all the passports for Scandinavia & New Zealand and I was really sad since we love this land but hate that people from other states make up all our laws!
Now we can feel some pride again after suffering ulcers for 4 years! Could our seceding possibly spare us the inevitible gaping holes where our stomachs used to be in the next, gulp, 4 more?!!!
I say be loud and be proud!!! Shes worth it! Coastopia make some NOISE!!!!! Nice to be around the choir where I can have some fun and stop PREACHING (for all the good it did in the last 4 yrs!!! Sadder still is the fact that incriminating facts proved unprovocative to over half the voting public throughout his first disaestrous term). No more preaching to the choir!
VIVA COASTOPIA!!!!! May she grow!!!!
Sleepless in NY

When Coastopia is reality it will be short order before the Busherica folks start begging to be let in. Consider what we will be leaving them.
Theirs will become an agrarian (agriculture based) society. Their working folks will be quickly denied almost all rights. Labor unions will cease to exist. They will almost immediately be granted the feudal pseudo-puritan society they seem to so wish for. The brown nosers left behind will quickly learn the price they must pay when there is no steel spined defender of the working class to tell the boss to fuck off. Maybe they can make Rush Limbaugh their new President and he can remind them that their suffering is their own making........that they can rise above....if only they are willing to liveand love to work 100 hours a week

Hey Ishtar, I can tell you are a young sprout who has absolutly NO idea what WWII was about, and yes they would be speaking German or Japanese if it wasn't for WWII, Wereyou there?? What make YOU such an expert. As for the rest of you, you can't even get your english grammer correct, to wit: have a hellecoptor pick up my roomate and I" You gona have a hellicopter pick up "I", the case is objective, use the word ME! Learn english!! and thank God you Don't speak German or Japanese!!!

Sleepless in New York,

We love you man. Those great oceans, the Pacific and Atlantic, (and since we are including Minnesota and Illinois the Great Lakes), may the negative ions of these lovely seas fill it's inhabitants with peace and prosperity and above all a healthy sense of humor.

Share this site of Coastopia with others.

Slante'.

Someone suggested a language for Coastopia. maybe we can resurrect latin just for fun. Would really freak those Reds from the Old Country. Here's an example

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

(translation)
I'm not interested in your dopey religious cult.

All of America's national parks should be demanded as property of Coastopia. Coastopia should cede to the Feudal Bush states Love Canal, Rocky Flats, and 3 mile island.

More Coastopian Latin.

"Et tu, pluribus unum?"

(The government just stabbed me in the back!)

"Auda similarum ad seattles."

(They all sound just like Pearl Jam.)

I love the idea of Coastopia, Calgon Take Me Away!

I submit an idea for a Coastopian flag. The flag would have a small far right segment (about 1/4th) in red. This would be bordered by a white stripe which would taper gently to an arrow pointing left into a larger (1/2) blue field.

Here is an interesting site:

HTTP://WWW. SECESSION.NET

Ah, its always refreshing to see a new frontier in kook ignorance!

Clark County, Nevada voted for Kerry too. Can we join Coastopia too? I certainly don't want to be left out there with the Bushites!

I say tax those Erectal Dysfunction ads to pay for healthcare. We can call it the pole tax.

"Hey Ishtar, I can tell you are a young sprout who has absolutly NO idea what WWII was about,"

Ah, the last bastion of one with no argument. If you are older than I am, you will always be older than I am. That does not grant superiority.

What WWII was about cannot be summed up in a single post. Many books on the subject have been written on it, and generally they can only cover one angle of it. The condensed high school history version is:
Hitler rose to power in Germany, unified the country behind his cause and got even more powerful. He subsequently began invading other countries, with the help of powerful allies, most notably, the Japanese. The U.S., still reeling from death and destruction in WWI and a horrible depression, kept an eye on the situation but tried to stay directly out of the fray. Europe was a divided mass of rampant distruction. England was bombed repeatedly, and some of the worst fighting was in France with trench battles and a divided countryside.

Then Japan bombed us. Whoops. Definitely a strategic move to go down in the records as "worst military blunders of all times". The Americans moved onward to kick butt, leading to a domino topple of the Axis powers, except Japan, which required rather drastic action to get them to surrender. Once victors moved into Germany and Poland they either 'discovered' or finally publically acknowledged the Holocaust, a testament to the evils of Nazi Germany, not simply in their push to rule the world, but in their brutal treatment of human beings, going far beyond even the horrors typical of war.

That pretty much the gist?

"and yes they would be speaking German or Japanese if it wasn't for WWII,"

Didn't deny that they would be. It's also true that we originally won our freedom from England; however when approaching foreign policy, holding a fifty year debt over people's heads as reason for their support now seems, at best, trite. Our actions in WWII have nothing directly to do with our present issues, so when we face the critique of other countries for our present actions, claiming they would be speaking German if not for us makes us look as if we cannot defend our current position, which in this case, would likely be accurate.

"Were you there??"

Nope. My great grandfather was though.

"What make YOU such an expert."

Fighting in a war doesn't necessarily make you an expert on it. Iraq is clear evidence of that. Besides, I never claimed expertise. I claimed that arrogantly shoving old debts in other countries' faces when they are legitimately criticizing our current position is not conducive to diplomacy. There's quite a difference. I'm sure you, in the infinite wisdom granted to you by the fortune of being born before I was, can comprehend it.

Ishie

Hi guys,
why don't you come to live in Italy, even if we have Berlusconi (but we are going to kick him in Spring) it is a nice country to live in. Great weather, great food and most of all great wine.
Come here and forget Ohio.
I feel a lot of simpathy for all of you. Let' hope in November 2008.
Ciao Daniele

Hi guys,
why don't you come to live in Italy, even if we have Berlusconi (but we are going to kick him in Spring) it is a nice country to live in. Great weather, great food and most of all great wine.
Come here and forget Ohio.
I feel a lot of simpathy for all of you. Let' hope in November 2008.
Ciao Daniele

Hi, ya'll, I am from the heartland of America (that is the real america). I think Bush is the best President ever. I think you can all go Fuck yourselves and go to Cuba. Hahahahahahaha

I think Uncle Jed said it they way it needed to be said. No PC speak or sugar coating to make those who are insecure or wear their heart on their sleeve, to feel good about themselves. Have a great day and I hope you too start your day with a nice cup of shut the fuck up. I am not sure but I think you can get that with some froth milk on the left coast of Coastopia.

Alleyoop620 stated, "...As for the rest of you, you can't even get your english grammer correct..."

Before you jump on Ishie or anybody else about grammar, put your own house in order. The word isn't 'grammer' (sic), it's 'grammar.'

Learn to spell.

Moron.

To all of the trolls and flamers on this site: You now have your asshole back in the White House for four years complete with the Iraqi chaos and economic uncertainty. Hell, you even gained seats in both houses of Congress (there are two, btw, for people like Jed, "HAHAHAHA", etc.). Don't you have something better to do like burning a mosque or lynching a bunch of Jews and blacks? You might even try reading your bible so you won't be so totally fucked up when you try to justify your fundamentalist "beliefs". No, I guess that's too hard. It's easier to listen to fellow ultra right wingers and televangelists than to actually come up with some new and well founded ideas supporting your position!

To those who post their typical threats, many liberals are armed. I'm the one who taught my daughter, Ishie to handle a weapon. Sure there are many gays among us, and we welcome them! Many of them also own weapons. Surprise, surprise!

Btw, Hi back to ya ish! I'll be emailing you in just a bit.

Coastopia Forever!! (but we really DO need a flag)

Dan

You people on the left are so unbelievably intolerant of any view but your own. The good news is that their are plenty of nations out their with a socialist form of government that would be glad to have you.
It is to bad you did not live underneath Stalins regime then there would be about 200 million less of you idiots out ther.

Nice spelling, Jan!! Just learning to type, or just pissed off? Btw, thanks for equating liberalism to socialism. I had no idea before your post that they were synonomous! You had best let the Webster people know this so they can revise their definition. It was also very enlightening to learn that liberals are notoriously intolerant. For some reason, I had it the other way around. I guess that I should watch more Fox "Fair and Unbiased" newscasts so I can be told exactly how I should think. I must have been getting it all wrong for these past 63 years.
Dan

as a canadian who has lived here for 30 years, and finally got the right to vote 10 years ago(after having paid taxes here for 20 years before that with no say)i take/took voting very seriuosly, and naively believed that it would always work out.after the mess of an election in 2000 when the real president was elected by the people, and the horrible THEFT of that in a state run by the pseudo presidents brother, i was horribly let down-but ever the polly anna that i am i was hoping/praying that in 2004 something could be done to get rid of this fraud of a president who has never had a real job,dodged the military duties he supposedly belonged to, and whose right wing nonsensical behavior would prove to all that he is an idiot. But alas that is not to be....i am glad that i never renounced my canadian citizenship, i am out of here, i can't stand to stay and see what hell will happen now. At least i live in PROUD coastopia,where there are some sane people left, until i can get out. Long live coastopia and the hope it shines!

Hmmmmm.... what I'm noticing here is that a lot of you "Reds"(Bushies/RightWingers??) can't spell worth a damn.

So where did you NOT learn spelling and grammAR --
in one of those backward Middle American excuses for a school?

Seems to me the idea of Coastopia in reverse has been around a very long time. Everytime a Northerner is referred to as a Yankee. We never got over the Civil War as a country.

It is evident cultural divisions have always been there. It's true I cannot relate to the Red States so lets save us all some grief and live happily here in Coastopia.

Gotta go, the latte is brewing, the sun is rising and I must go off and create some software.

Cheers.

I say it's mighty big of you to recognize your out-of-touch and unAmerican ways. You've all done you level best to make America see that your twisted, illogical and immoral ways are normal, but you continue to struggle with the basic fact that it is you who has changed and who is different. The rest of us cling to morals, values, justice and fairness, all concepts that you abandon in search of govermenatally mandated acceptance that we won't give you otherwise. And since you can't get the rest of us to accept you, perhaps it is better to go off on your own.

But don't think for a minute that the rest of us, being the majority, are simply going to let you deface, defile and disgrace territories of your choosing. Instead, I recommend France. They are just the kind of wine drinking, butt-slamming, surrender monkey, socialists that you are looking for. I am only sure that our State Department can help you all arrange an application for French citizenship. I wish you all the best!

Robert

Hmmm..what I am noticing is that you "Blues/Left Wingers" can not think for yourselves therefore you live in the bubble of The NY Times, Dan Rather, And Michael Moore. If you move to Coastopia maybe then Your "intellectualy superior" leaders can think for you, and redistribute your earnings.

Do it, hoss. In five years we'll pick up the shards of your Soviet Union for 2 cents on the dollar.
Oh, meritocracy? So... you're abandoning Affirmative Action? And a champion of Free Trade? THOSE are winners with the retard left.
HA!

You know, at first I was wondering about the connection between Coastopia and global warming -- our states will be some of the most affected by the higher levels of water.

But then again, Mr. Bush says that global warming doesn't exist.

Now I don't know who to follow :-(

DJ

Middle America take your guns and shove them up your ass. OH and don't forget to pull the trigger!

Screw it lets have another civil war. America started in the North East. I think they should go not us. Why should we go, lets make them go.

Re: "Middle America take your guns and shove them up your ass. Oh and dont forget to pull the trigger"

Isn't the Left supposed to be about tolerance and diversity? That is why you will ALWAYS be losers.
Get a life. Hopefully in a socialist nation.

Well, now that it's the north talking of secession, maybe you can recognize the importance of the second amendments "Right to Keep and Bear Arms". To bad the citizens of New York and Massachusetts gave up this right years ago.

Maybe when you start your war for independance you can finally see that the purpose of the right to bear isn't about hunting but rather about defending ones country from tyranny.

Lucky for you, we still have the N.R.A. to defend the rights given us by the constitution.

Liberals are more concerned with the rights given us by Lawyers and Judges.

Stupid ass in bread hicks. Get brain and education.

Dumber then a stump.

DA DA DA! I voted for GW becuze he got moral values.

He's pulling the wool over your eyes you dumb ass hicks

ATTENTION:

As owner of this site - and author of the original post - I'm overjoyed to see all the differing viewpoints on this thread. In fact, I wish there was a better place we could take this, instead of wading through 400 comments.

It seems to have touched a raw nerve, and that's great. But from now on, I'm going to delete posts that say nothing but "hahahahahaha fuck you leftists" or offer nothing more than name-calling.

Conservatives: posts like Robert's above are great. Liberals: posts like Ishie's or Lori's are awesome. Please, just have something intelligent to say, as I - and many others - are reading every last word of these.

thanks!

AMERICAN COASTOPIA

I have felt deep despair for so long........I have been thinking of what country to move to and now this - I feel connected to the humane people of this earth once again. I live in Dunedin, Florida, and I am so VERY sorry for the 2000 fiasco and disheartened by this 2004 loss. Please, please keep fighting that good fight - you all give me hope.

Seems as though this country is going to be made up of a bunch of crying loosers. How long do you think this new country of yours will last if everytime someone losses an election they will take their little piece of land and quit the community. Its not the Jesus fanatics or Homophobes that caused Kerry to lose the election. It was the extreme liberals that spoke so much hate speach that it turned off the moderates.

If you want to get back into power and do something productive yourselves do what Clinton did, move towards the middle. Thats how he beat Bush senior. In the meantime quit crying in your soup and get the types like Mr Moore to shut up.

--- A Moderate Democrat

thank you thank you thank you for putting into words what we have all been dreaming about!!!!

on 9/10 Ian wrote:

"ATTENTION:

As owner of this site - and author of the original post - I'm overjoyed to see all the differing viewpoints on this thread. In fact, I wish there was a better place we could take this, instead of wading through 400 comments."

Why not create a mailing list forum for those who want it? It would be nice not to have to wade through all the flamers.

"Seems as though this country is going to be made up of a bunch of crying loosers."

I see a lot of classification of us as "whiners", "crying losers", and other such statements that attempt to rob dissent of credibility. I am concerned that this administration is endangering our citizens, endangering our troops, murdering people in other countries, stripping the environment, and driving us into an economic depression. I feel that now given majority approval AND having virtually nothign to lose, this trend is going to get worse.

This doesn't strike me as "whining". These are valid concerns. I'm not whining that Kerry lost. He was the ultimate "lesser of two evils" candidate. I think that the Democrats' refusal to define their party goals in favor of 'not offending anyone' made them look weak in comparison to the Bush "Do it, kill them all and let God sort em out" unwavering doctrine, even to such a degree that the man is unwilling to admit a single mistake. Apparently, America likes that. The Democrats needed to state a clear direction, and they failed miserably. It didn't help that after 9/11, they allowed themselves to be bullied into anything the administration wanted (are you with America or with the terrorists?) and okayed things like the Patriot Act (without frigging reading it!) and the move into Iraq. Going back on it now makes them look like "flip floppers".

I am concerned that Bush won. Scratch that, I'm *terrified* that Bush won. The values outlined by his administration are not ones I find American, legal, or even morally conceivable, and those values have nothing to do with gays or abortion.

"Its not the Jesus fanatics or Homophobes that caused Kerry to lose the election. It was the extreme liberals that spoke so much hate speach that it turned off the moderates."

I sincerely disagree. A number of factors contributed, but the actual Kerry camp was so moderate it could define where it was. As for hate speech, I turn your attention to Kentucky where the man who called his opponent a limp wristed homosexual was the one who won? I turn your attention to the Swift Boat Veterans who have managed to convince people Kerry was a traitor? People have conveniently forgotten their atrocious attempts to slander McCain (a frigging POW!) in the 2000 primaries, and believe that this group is just "telling the truth" when they support people who wiggled out of Vietnam? How about the constant soundbites of "flip flopping", "Massachusetts liberals", and even my own governor's highly immature "democratic girlie men"? The most prominent hate speech I've seen has been directed by GOP supporters.

"If you want to get back into power and do something productive yourselves do what Clinton did, move towards the middle."

Kerry was pretty close to the middle, far more than many democrats would have liked. He even gave lip service against gay marriage to pander. What Kerry didn't have was Clinton's charisma and intelligence, nor did Al Gore. Besides, Clinton is the dirty word among many Bush supporters?

"In the meantime quit crying in your soup and get the types like Mr Moore to shut up."

Oh, I'm being proactive as well, trust me. Forums like these just give me a place to air my frustrations, but are by no means the sole representation of my involvement.

As for Michael Moore, why would I try to get him to shut up? He has a right to free speech, just as the Swift Boat Veterans do.

Ishie

as a canadian who has lived here for 30 years, and finally got the right to vote 10 years ago(after having paid taxes here for 20 years before that with no say)i take/took voting very seriuosly, and naively believed that it would always work out.after the mess of an election in 2000 when the real president was elected by the people, and the horrible THEFT of that in a state run by the pseudo presidents brother, i was horribly let down-but ever the polly anna that i am i was hoping/praying that in 2004 something could be done to get rid of this fraud of a president who has never had a real job,dodged the military duties he supposedly belonged to, and whose right wing nonsensical behavior would prove to all that he is an idiot. But alas that is not to be....i am glad that i never renounced my canadian citizenship, i am out of here, i can't stand to stay and see what hell will happen now. At least i live in PROUD coastopia,where there are some sane people left, until i can get out. Long live coastopia and the hope it shines!

guess the schools aren't too good in Canada either.

As an Italian citizen I am proud to be the first European to recognize the sovereign nation of AMERICAN COASTOPIA as a respected friend and ally. Tell you what, why dont we organise a swap? The Italian people will organise a flight for our Prime Minister Berlusconi (Another of Shrub's lap dogs who sent 3,500 of my fellow Italians to "liberate" Iraq) so that he can go live in Texas with his master and you can organise flights so that citizens of the AMERICAN COASTOPIA can come and visit a truly liberated country (liberated of our US led, televison backed, religous PM)

p.s. if you get sick of your propaganda filled national newspapers you might want to check out the most respected liberal UK newspaper. It has kept me sane for years when the exasperation with biased Italian newspapers gets too strong.

guardian.co.uk

"It is to bad you did not live underneath Stalins regime then there would be about 200 million less of you idiots out ther."

Hmmm... supporters of the "moral majority" express glee in the concept of the murder of 200 million people they disagree with.

Thank you for your input, Jan. I for one, do not wish violent miserable death upon you and millions of your fellows, but thank you for giving us a bit of perspective. Next will you enlighten us on it being a shame that the homosexuals we love so much weren't tortured in death camps in Nazi Germany? That'd be good for a lark, wouldn't it?

On this string of posts, I've seen a lot of "Well, you don't like that we're moral, you (expletives deleted), butt pumpers. It's a shame you don't live in (country which has/had atrocity) so we could *really* get rid of you all. We've got all the guns, so just try something, ya (expletives deleted). You hate us for our morality and American values!"

Though I realize as a liberal, I am less than human to many of you people, and you'd like to see me put to death like a pig, but I'm going to ask a favor anyway. To those of you (not all) who are proposing and/or dreaming of horrific violence directed to fellow American (now Coastopian) citizens for the crime of verbally dissenting, while peppering your sentiments with a level of profanity that sparks outrage when enclosed in video games, would you mind refraining from including your superior moral position in the same post? The hypocrisy gives me a headache, and it's hard to work with a headache.

Granted, some of you are angry at seeing profanity and expressions of violence directed toward your position. Understandable. If I am remembering correctly (and it's hard; I've been morally bankrupt for SO long), it is not generally considered the moral or mature position to answer violence and profanity with violence and profanity. Many of you, if you heard your children respond to someone who said "F- you" to them, by saying "No! F- you!" back would discipline them.

I am no stranger to explicit language and am quite capable of unleashing a string of vulgarity that would make a sailor vomit. But then again, I am not claiming to ally myself with old fashioned moral values. Many did not vote for Bush on moral issues, and that's fine. Continue firing death threats at will.

For those expousing Christian morality, I would advise you that missing from the Bible is the place where Jesus gave Pontius Pilate the finger and said "Wash your hands of this, you f-ing commie butthumper! And while I'm at it, I hope ya die of syphilis!!"

Amen.
Ishie

Ishie,

I take exception with only one of your comments re: Kerry.

He is not a moderate...not even close to the center. He was and is far more liberal than Clinton (who by the way beat Bush #41 only because Perot managed to suck down 21 percent of the vote).

My personal opinion is that the Democrats have shifted too far left of center and the GOP has shifted too far to the right of center. Meanwhile, most of mainstream America hovers closer to the center.

The party that breaks the code first...and addresses it...will win in 2008.

For what it's worth...

"...can organise flights so that citizens of the AMERICAN COASTOPIA can come and visit a truly liberated country"

Molto Bene!

Salve!
Coastopians are going to have to adjust some of our customs laws. I have wine to stockpile!!

I was looking at travel to Italy (always wanted to go there), but I'm going to have to wait a little while and chase the moths out of my wallet.

Salute!

"For those expousing Christian morality, I would advise you that missing from the Bible is the place where Jesus gave Pontius Pilate the finger and said "Wash your hands of this, you f-ing commie butthumper! And while I'm at it, I hope ya die of syphilis!!"

Ishie, Ishie, Ishie.

Thank you for the levity. Your witty repartee and rapier wit are greatly appreciated!!!!

WindRider

Shit just realised another Italian beat me to it. Should have read a bit more before posting. Oh, well.

Also, you all seem a bit hazy on exactly what happened in WW2.
Four little facts that might change your mind slightly.
1)The largest provider of "computerised" data sheets for listing jewish prisoners in concentration camps was .... IBM
2)After the end of the war the US set up prison camps for captured german POWs and sistematically failed to feed, shelter and cure them. This led to the death of nearly a million germans while in US custody
3)Grandfather Bush was one of Hitler's main bankers
4)The japanese only attacked pearl harbor because the US navy was blockading japanese ships, thus making it impossible for them to import oil, thus making it impossible for them to wage war in Asia. The US admin did this deliberately so that the japanese would attack the US thus making it possible for your president (who had been elected on the promise that he would not join in WW2) to declare war

Remember: History is written by those who win but it does not mean it is necesarily true.

What "Mike" forgot to mention was that, by putting the gun where he suggested, and by doing what he suggested with it, you would, in effect, just be blowing your "brains" out......

You have got to be kidding this is the biggest joke I have ever come across. You people have really got to get some sense and think about what you are talking about. Get a brain assholes.

Ohhh please we the nice people of Puerto Rico would like to be part of Costopia, even if we are still a colony of you people, we trust you will treat us better than the rest of stupid white american heartlanders. Even thou we are almost the owuners of NYC becauce half of our population lives there so we are kinda halfway united to you. We would love to party with you guys and be your winter getaway since we would like nice turists not stupid people from Tex-ass that come to Puerto Rico to eat and do the same things they do at their damn state and eat stake instead of good puertorican food.
STUPID AMERICANS, BECAUCE OF THEIR STUPITNES WE PAY WITH OUR COUSINS, BROTHERS, AND FATHERS THAT ARE IN THE NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVE IN IRAK.

"STUPID AMERICANS, BECAUCE OF THEIR STUPITNES WE PAY WITH OUR COUSINS, BROTHERS, AND FATHERS THAT ARE IN THE NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVE IN IRAK."

Ian,

I thought you were going to screen out the flamers (see quote above)...please add the grossly illiterate to your filter list. I wonder who helps them log on?

Kiss my ass you liberal asswipes. Leave the country. Get over it and in four more years all the shit you believe happened because of one man will most likely return to your liking. There's no need to complain, everyone else is in the same boat. Everything that happens happens to everyone and not just you left-wingers. I have to say the people who are more right than left, like myself, are pretty sick of you liberals complaining about the outcome of the election and what's going on in this country. My suggestion is you get all of your progressive pals out AND FUCKING VOTE next time. Seems like the new registers that supported Bush outnumbered the new registers that supported Kerry, and maybe that was because they wanted to shove it in your face. Shit, I wanted Kerry to win so all of you people would just SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Mike,

Does it hurt more when the moon is full?

Thar seems to me that y'all Coastapeons seem to be a bunch of menser type folks rubbin' it in on how dumb we ol' redzoners is....

Now I's comes across a peace in your "bible perryodical" the New York Times that lays it all to rest 'tween your boss man and ourn. Pleas read and remembers yur IQ's are shirley higher then ourn:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/24/politics/campaign/24points.html

Quote:

Secret Weapon for Bush?
By JOHN TIERNEY
Published: October 24, 2004

To Bush-bashers, it may be the most infuriating revelation yet from the military records of the two presidential candidates: the young George W. Bush probably had a higher I.Q. than did the young John Kerry.

That, at least, is the conclusion of Steve Sailer, a conservative columnist at the Web magazine Vdare.com and a veteran student of presidential I.Q.'s. During the last presidential campaign Mr. Sailer estimated from Mr. Bush's SAT score (1206) that his I.Q. was in the mid-120's, about 10 points lower than Al Gore's.

Mr. Kerry's SAT score is not known, but now Mr. Sailer has done a comparison of the intelligence tests in the candidates' military records. They are not formal I.Q. tests, but Mr. Sailer says they are similar enough to make reasonable extrapolations.

Mr. Bush's score on the Air Force Officer Qualifying Test at age 22 again suggests that his I.Q was the mid-120's, putting Mr. Bush in about the 95th percentile of the population, according to Mr. Sailer. Mr. Kerry's I.Q. was about 120, in the 91st percentile, according to Mr. Sailer's extrapolation of his score at age 22 on the Navy Officer Qualification Test.

Linda Gottfredson, an I.Q. expert at the University of Delaware, called it a creditable analysis said she was not surprised at the results or that so many people had assumed that Mr. Kerry was smarter. "People will often be misled into thinking someone is brighter if he says something complicated they can't understand," Professor Gottfredson said.

Many Americans still believe a report that began circulating on the Internet three years ago, and was quoted in "Doonesbury," that Mr. Bush's I.Q. was 91, the lowest of any modern American president. But that report from the non-existent Lovenstein Institute turned out to be a hoax.

You might expect Kerry campaign officials, who have worried that their candidate's intellectual image turns off voters, to quickly rush out a commercial trumpeting these new results, but for some reason they seem to be resisting the temptation.

Upon hearing of their candidate's score, Michael Meehan, a spokesman for the senator, said merely: "The true test is not where you start out in life, but what you do with those God-given talents. John Kerry's 40 years of public service puts him in the top percentile on that measure."
un quote

Two more things:
1- Ishie - I'll meet you in Reno ; -)

2- Posted by: James at November 10, 2004 11:26 AM
as a canadian........You have never been an American you always been a dam Canadian...thanks for the taxes!

Does one laught or cry at something like this? All future citizens of Coastopia (what a dull, unoriginal name - how about the People's Republic of Blue?) were quite willing to accept a Kerry presidency while losing 3.5 million votes. Here's the difference - when Clinton won in 92 (I was an idiot and voted for him) with just 42% of the vote, GOPers thought it was the end of the world. Yet no one called the Dem voters idiots, racists, bigots, homophobes, uneducated, monkeys, etc...

Keep it up - it is talk like this that (somehow) got Bush elected. Hate just doesn't go over well to the masses. And don't forget that Oregon, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and New Hampshire were all 51-49 or less...color them aqua I guess.

Simba,

I think you have to laugh about this. It's like the folks at SNL are floating this weekend's comedy sketch past us before going live with it. They're testing to see if it's really funny...actually, it's pathetic.

This is in response to Windrider65:
Just because someone's writing is not as perfect as your own does not make them "grossly illterate". Did you stop to think that since Chopa was writing about Puerto Rico, he might actually be from there and his first language might not be English? We claim we want to be different, but if we don't plan on accepting people who may not share our exact opinions, we are no different than the administration we dislike. And as for the shouting, Chopa has reasons for screaming. For those of you that don't know, Puertoricans, despite technically being American citizens, are not allowed to vote for president yet can be drafted in times of war. We lose people in wars we have no say in, we are controlled by a leader we do not elect. The American Navy has been bombing one of the small inhabited islands off our coasts. We had no say in that either. Puerto Rico is a beautiful place which would be a wonderful asset to America Coastopia, but if people like Windrider65 are going to make gross assumptions about people, maybe we're not welcome. Windrider65, i suggest you think a little bit before speaking and don't jump to conclusions like so many other stereotypical "ugly Americans" we Puertoricans have been priviledged to meet and have running around our island. If the people in America Coastopia are going to be as quick to judge and ridicule like Windrider65, I will have to agree with ses, maybe American Coastopia, isn't for us.

"Keep it up - it is talk like this that (somehow) got Bush elected. Hate just doesn't go over well to the masses."

You're kidding, right? Mudslinging campaigns are almost always the most successful, prior to the election, John Kerry was painted as a traitor to his country for fighting in a war our president didn't see fit to attend (nor did Clinton), called a number of names directly by the GOP, including Bush himself... Half the campaign was based on taking pieces of Kerry's rambling statements out of context and harping on them. The "Global test" one was an obvious example. I saw the original context and it had nothing to do with "asking France for permission".

Based on observation, hate and fear seems to have largely fueled the masses. Many rallied behind a hatred of a man they considered a traitor, we rallied behind hate against those who perped the 9/11 attacks (which would be fine, except a huge number of people in this country think that means Iraq), and we were filled with fear over inadequate handling of terrorists, not to mention the state of colored alert the executive branch has been attempting to keep us in.

If Bush and his admin didn't act hateful and arrogant and base policies on these 'values', I wouldn't particularly care that they had won. Though I lean to the left because I'd rather have a bad financial plan if it means keeping civil liberties, I do not ally myself with either democrats or republicans.
-----
Oh onto the IQ thing, neither Bush nor Kerry strike me as swimming in intelligence, though Kerry does debate well. Bush initially struck me as dumb as a chimp because of his inability to string together a coherant sentence coupled with his common trait of trailing off while staring into space.

Lately, I'm guessing Bush or his handlers are more intelligent than I gave him/them credit for, and Bush simply shares the trait with his father of being an exceptionally bad public speaker.

The administration has managed to convince people they are the moral party for the little guy when most of their economic policy seems to involve shady business practices with huge corporations, including those funded by those who support terror. They have correctly gauged a large post-9/11 sentiment that since being attacked, we can cowboy up against world opinion. They have made God and America equivalent terms inspiring reverence so to deny one is to deny the other. Patriotism has become its own religion. They rallied behind hot-button issues to emerge as the "moral" platform and now dominate two of the three 'checks' with sights set on the third one.

It's Emporer-from-Star-Wars diabolical, but it is also frigging brilliant. So indications that Bush's iq is not as low as previously expected would not be particularly surprising.

Ishie

GWB suffers from premature Iraqulation. Perhaps a Pfiser commercial is in the works.....

This is in response to Lala:
1. Did I consider that Chopa might be from Puerto Rico? Absolutely. In fact, I assumed he was. I know dozens (not one or two...DOZENS) of people born and raised in Puerto Rico. And all are just as literate as you or me. Children in Puerto Rico begin learning to read and write English when they begin school. So don't try and hand me this 'pity poor Chopa' nonsense. It doesn't apply. Further, I'm an Equal Opportunity critic; I loathe the decline of literacy everywhere...not just in the USA, Coastopia, or Puerto Rico...everywhere. You read one post and jumped to the conclusion that I'm attacking Puerto Ricans and/or people who don't receive an education in English. What rot.

2. As for being in drafted in times of war...there is no draft. Perhaps you should remain a little more current. Every state/county/city/town loses people in wars over which they have no say. Here's the kicker: it's a Volunteer Force. People signing up and accepting a paycheck understand the ramifications...particularly in this day and age.

3. Puerto Rico IS a beautiful place. I'm glad you think so too.

4. You are right about one thing...someone here is jumping to conclusions...but it isn't me.

Ishie,
I did not mean "hate". What I meant was the incredible condescension shown toward Red state voters both before and after the election. You think people cannot listen to the candidates, weigh the evidence and make a decision. I NEVER heard God, guns & gays but I did hear a lot about the biased media, Kerry's 20 year record (which he avoided like a plague) and (from Blue folks) how utterly stupid someone would have to be to support Bush. (Michael Moore won the election for Bush - is he a GOP plant?)

Is this to be the new way from now on-the losing side refuses to accept the verdict? I live in a Red state that voted Blue until recently and Kerry was veiwed as the stranger - filthy rich, superficial, disdainful, nuanced to the nth, expensive toys, slightly European. Fair? Maybe not but Kerry himself gave that image by traipsing to his many homes, riding his $8,000 bike and wind-surfing.

Hopefully this is just a way to let off steam but even in the heights of Clinton hatred there was nothing even approaching this.

Sister Site Alive and Well.
http://americanunion.blogspot.com/

Let this be a message to all of you in bush-land. We are breaking off from you. Don't be worried, since you will have great income from oil. The only problem is that W Bush was the only Texan in history to open up an oil company in Texas but couldn't find oil!!!!

Hehe
K

[a bunch of bullshit deleted by moderator]

"I did not mean "hate". What I meant was the incredible condescension shown toward Red state voters both before and after the election."

We actually didn't know who was going to be a "red state" until after the election. The exit polls showed things far closer than they turned out.

"You think people cannot listen to the candidates, weigh the evidence and make a decision."

People on BOTH sides refuse to involve themselves at all in politics, choose a media source, and rely on it as their sole source of political information, which strikes me as dangerous. When I see polls showing the number of people who link Iraq and 9/11 and their relative percentage among Bush voters, that does raise serious concerns. They are misinformed. I've talked to many perfectly intelligent people who "don't pay attention to that stuff". Then don't vote! I know one woman (not saying she is representative of all Bush voters) who is a perfectly nice person and an intelligent person, but she voted for Bush because "the troops seem to be for him".

This is not informed voting. If that is condescending, then by all means, get the people to prove me wrong. On both sides.

"(Michael Moore won the election for Bush - is he a GOP plant?)"

If he did, then Bush voters really are stupid. I voted for Kerry because of Bill O'Reilly! No way.

"Is this to be the new way from now on-the losing side refuses to accept the verdict?"

Though many want us to "quit the whining" about the 2000 election, there is no denying that there was a LOT of mishandling, at the very least, afoot there, and that it looks incredibly suspicious when the governor of the state in question is the candidates brother. In this election, it looks like Bush won, but at the same time, it ALSO looks like there were a lot of cases of bullying voters and attempting to interfere in the ability of people to join the democratic process. I don't think they needed that to "win the election", don't get me wrong, but it is a huge problem.

"I live in a Red state that voted Blue until recently and Kerry was veiwed as the stranger - filthy rich,"

And Bush, as Jon Stewart said, was a cockney matchgirl.

"superficial,"

Playing war hero by dressing up in a Halloween costume to land on an aircraft carrier. Spouting old country down home Texan style when you are Yale educated and your father was the president.

"disdainful,"

Have you watched Bush address the U.N.? Or when there were more protestors throughout America and the world than there were in Vietnam how he dismissed everything as "interest groups"? Have you watched him deal with reporters who question him?

"slightly European."

Ich bin ein Berliner.

"Fair? Maybe not but Kerry himself gave that image by traipsing to his many homes, riding his $8,000 bike and wind-surfing."

And Bush, perpetually on vacation, giving soundbites against terrorism while golfing, and spending time when our country is at bitter war to go on the fishing channel gives the impression of a man whose mind is clearly on his work.

Seeing Kerry on a bike was kind of disturbing. Seeing him windsurf and snowboard was actually a relief because prior to that I thought he was a robot. And I'll admit he looks like a basset hound if Bush people admit he looks like an orangutan.

"Hopefully this is just a way to let off steam but even in the heights of Clinton hatred there was nothing even approaching this."

What's funny is that president bashing didn't become un-American until this administration. Then we had people boycotting the Dixie Chicks.

I've heard pretty intense anti-Clinton stuff. What's striking to me is that Clinton's main claim to fame (and one reason many people HATE him) is he got an extramarital BJ and lied about it.

Eventually, Clinton apologized. He had to apologize on national television and say "America, I am sorry that I lied to you about getting a BJ from that 21 year old intern. Now try to scrub that image off your brain, and have a nice dinner."

Presidents aren't perfect, and with the power they have, they have the potential to make some pretty cataclysmic blunders.

Bush lied about our reason for going to war! If you give him the strongest benefit of the doubt, at the very least, he was involved in a massive intelligence failure regarding our decision to go to war.

He hasn't apologized. He refuses to even acknowledge mistakes were made. He addresses other countries who told us not to do this in the first place like "Well, now that we've done your dirty work for you, it's time for you guys to kick in and help". Bush can't eke out an "I'm sorry I said there were weapons of mass destruction and links to the 9/11 attacks in Iraq"? Clinton had to give, on national record, explicit details of his trysts, including where the cigar went. If my MOTHER asked me questions like those, I'd have told her to butt out, and Bush can't even acknowledge wrongdoing?

My opinion of the man would improve greatly if he seemed capable of believing himself responsible for his actions. People who can't admit fault scare me.

Ishie

Ooooooooh...I'm shaking like a leaf. Somebody who calls himself 'death' has several thousand rounds of m-16 ammo. Not much good without the M-16, is it? What are you going to do...throw the bullets at us?

You clown.

You're obviously some 115 pound wanna-be, soaking wet with rocks in your pockets, who has never a done a single day in the military...if you had...the M-16 would be your last choice of weaponry. What's a matter boy, mommy didn't give you enough attention? Are the voices talking to you again?

You can ease our pain all right...haul your scrawny ass out of town.

(Lala...lo siento mucho...he brings it out in me...)

Here on the left West coast, yes we are worried.

There was a real life terrorist captured in Port Angeles Washington BEFORE 9-11. It was only due to a sharp custom agent who questioned why someone going to Vancouver BC to Seattle would take a ferry to Vancouver Island, then another ferry to Port Angeles WA, who would then have to take another ferry to Seattle. When she questioned the guy about his bizarre itinerary he panicked and ran. He told the Feds what they were preparing for BEFORE 9-11. They found the bomb makings intended for LA-X in the trunk. A documentary shown on Canadian TV which we are blest to get here in Washington gave all the details and Mr. Bush's adminstration failed to take this guy seriously. The American Media did not detail the capture of Resamm like the Canadian media did. Let's face it both coasts are at a higher risk and the concern is, by going into Iraq, a secular country we have now de stabilized and made it a recruiting ground for even more terrorism. Look what happened in Northern Ireland in the early 70s on Bloody Sunday. Because some ill prepared British Troops got trigger happy during a Peace March it created a huge influx of IRA recruits for years afterward and they are just starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel some 30 years later. It is amazing what 1 ill fated military operation can create and picking up the pieces afterward takes years.
As all of you use items from the Pacific Rim all of these items pass through our large ports on the West Coast. Our government failed prior to 9-11 even with the information they had, we saw the Bush administration focus on Iraq instead of finishing the job in Afganistan and we feel even more at risk with this administration because they have made so many mistakes and will not own up to them. I must remind you that the city of Seattle cancelled it's 2000 New Years party and got much ridicule around the country because of information received about a possible terror strike involving slamming planes into large buildings. The information at that time was sketchy but as the months went on, it was clear this plan was in the works. Tell people in New York City why their government failed them. Hell yes we don't trust this administration.

Now let me get back to Coastopia where those lattes are hot and the air isn't so heavy.

Actually, a brilliant proposal. Canada is being all difficult, since you have to prove you have a job, or that you're marrying a Canadian. This will fix the problem of being under the current administration AND pulls the rug out from under their feet by stripping away everything that has kept their twisted plots going for so long.

and another thing, we are letting Minnesota in Coastopia, right? There are lots of Minnesota transplants in Washington and we have family there. We really need them in this part of Coastopia to properly instruct us on urban snow driving techniques, a couple inches can turn Seattle into a mess. (we in turn can teach the rest of Coastopia how to deal with ash or rain fall).

Hey Coasta-peons. I just found these secret contingency plans the Texans had on the back burner in case the "Fraud" was elected. Sound familiar?
----------------------------------------
SECRET NOPORN

THE FUTURE OF TEXAS if Kerry wins the election -

Please note that Texas is the only state with a legal right to secede from
the Union. Please refer to the Texas-American Annexation Treaty of 1848.

We Texans love y'all, but we'll have to take action if Kerry wins the
presidency over Bush. We'll miss you, too.

Texas has given all those complainers plenty of time to get used to the
results. After seeing the whiners along the campaign route, the folks from
Texas are considering taking matters into our own hands.

Here is our solution:

1. Let John Kerry become President of the United States, all 49 states.

2. George W. Bush becomes the President of the Republic Of Texas.

So what does Texas have to do to survive as a Republic?

1. NASA is just south of Houston, Texas. We will control the space industry.

2. Gasoline - We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States.

3. Defense Industry - We have over 65% of it. The motto "Don't Mess with
Texas" will take on a whole new meaning.

4. Oil - We can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will need for
the next 300 years. Yankee states? Sorry about that.

5. Natural Gas - Again we have all we need, and it's too bad about those
northern states. John Kerry will figure a way to keep them warm.

6. Computer Industry - We currently lead the nation in producing computer
chips and communications: Small places like Texas Instruments, Dell
Computer, EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor, Motorola, Intel, AMD,
Atmel, Applied Materials, Ball Semiconductor, Dallas Semiconductor, Delphi,
Nortel, Alcatel, etc. The list goes on and on.

7. Health Centers - We have the largest research centers for cancer
research, the best burn centers, and the top trauma units in the world, and
other large health planning centers.

8. Education - We have enough colleges to keep us going: UT, Texas A&M,
Texas Tech, Rice, SMU, U. of Houston, Baylor, UNT, Texas Women's University,
St. Mary's University, San Antonio College. Ivy grows better in the South
anyway.

9. Laborers - We have a ready supply of workers. We just open the border
when we need some more.

10. We have control of the paper industry, plastics, insurance, etc.

11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas National Guard and the
Texas Air National Guard. We don't have an army, but since everybody down
here has at least 6 rifles and a pile of ammo, we can raise an army in 24
hours if we need it. If the situation really gets bad, we can always call
Department of Public Safety and ask them to send over a couple Texas
Rangers.

12. Food - We are totally self sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs, several
types of grain, fruit, vegetables, and let's not forget seafood from the
Gulf. And everybody down here knows how to cook them so that they taste
good. Don't need any food.

This names just a few of the items that will keep the Republic Of Texas in
good shape. There isn't a thing out there that we need and don't have.

Only one problem: we do have a few Bush haters. We will give them a choice
of changing their minds or leaving the Republic of Texas. No true Texan will
tolerate hatred of our Commander in Chief of the Republic!

Now to the rest of the United States under President Kerry:

Since you won't have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only President
Kerry will be able to drive around in his 9-mile-per- gallon SUV. The rest
of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes.

You won't have any TV since the space center in Houston will cut off your
connection to space communications.

You won't have any natural gas to heat your homes, but since Mr. Kerry has
predicted global warming, you will not need the gas.

Have a nice day!
SECRET NOPORN

Only fat midwesterners who eat 25 twinkies a day while sitting on the couch care about watching TV. We can live without it.

J

Go Away! No loathsome nasty right-wingers allowed in Coastopia. My God, the language they use. Where are your morals and values? Or was the moral values crap just for the exit pollers? Gees! These right-wingers are like crab grass or antibiotic resistant germs. First order of business for our country is to come up with an inoculation or an antidote to keep right-wingers from ever sprouting in our fair land.

We're going to be riding our trusty mountain bikes here in Coastopia. We have lots of hydro power (Grand Coulee Dam ) and many farmers supplement their income by the growing wind energy business.(lots of those cute whirly gigs that dot the landscape) Our streets lamps are being converted with little solar panels and we have an abundance of seafood and food products. I'm not really interested in having NASA anyway, but Paul Allen (co founder of microsoft) just came up with that little private space craft that had a successful launch last month. Maybe we can use his little space gadget hobby of his to get us over to the Eastern section of Coastopia for Coastopian summits. We have alot of edible plants here and our sovereign tribal neighbors within our borders have taken back their culture and living off the abundance of this bountiful land thank you very much. They would be just slap happy to have the Department of the Interior off their backs for once.

Have a nice day down there in the Republic of Texas.

To my fellow Coastopians as well as the nay Sayers,

I would first like to thank Ian for providing such a great forum, and to applaud him on not allowing simplistic “Hahhaha” posts replete with the excessive profanity with which they are typically rife.

I have participated in American politics for many years, but I don’t recall ever seeing the nation so deeply divided. I believe that I can speak with a good degree of equanimity about our current situation. In years past, I have voted both Democrat and Republican depending on the candidates and the issues. I classify myself as a moderate, although, given a choice between conservatism and liberalism, I tend to lean more towards liberalism as defined in the dictionary, not as demonized by ultra conservatives. I have traveled widely throughout both the United States and the world during my career and have been delighted by the diversity of cultures that I have been privileged to experience. I am a moderate Christian who respects all other religions, and I firmly believe in the separation of church and state.

This said I am deeply disturbed by the many posters to this site who view the nation’s division with such simplistic categorization. Many of us who did not vote for Bush are not simply disgruntled because “our” candidate did not win. John Kerry was not my preferred candidate of choice, but I considered him to be the far lesser of two evils. This is hardly the first time that a national election did not result in the winning of my candidate of choice. It is, however, the first time that I have ever been so appalled by the results. The majority of Americans have chosen to continue on the path of alienating the nation from the rest of the world, pursuing what is nothing less than a holy war, and supporting a faltering economy that is buoyed only by large corporate private interests. I am even more concerned with the accelerated movement toward a church state and an ever-greater emphasis on increasing America’s provinciality. Many people who voted for Bush did so out of fear, and, while I can sympathize with them, I do not believe that this once great nation should be reduced to a condition of mass hysteria. America has the means to effectively fight terrorism, but that effectiveness is greatly reduced when we target nations that are not directly involved with anti-American terrorism while ignoring those nations, such as Saudi Arabia, who provide funding, personnel, and training for terrorists. Hussein was just one of the world’s many dictators who have suppressed their people and flagrantly violated human rights. America needs to concentrate on the real threats to its people: actual terrorists, worldwide nuclear proliferation, global warming, and this nation’s increasing alienation from the world community.

The nation is divided, not on political ideology, but on fundamental differences between sets of moral values. Those of us who believe that our constitutional rights should be rigidly upheld, that ill-planned preemptive war is wrong, that a strong separation between church and state must be maintained, that we cannot stand alone as isolationists in an ever shrinking world, and that might rarely equates to right stand together in a maligned and misunderstood minority watching helplessly as much of what we hold dear is trampled. It would be truly ironic, if it were not so terrifying, that all of this is apparently due to the fact that so many of the majority consider bans on gay marriage, the right to life from the moment of conception, prayer in schools, and similar perceived Christian doctrines to be more important than our fundamental freedom of choice and our tolerance toward those who are different from us. This is a rift in national belief that I do not think will be healed anytime in the near future.

I apologize for such a long post, but after viewing the ranting, raving, and gloating by so many on this site, I needed to have my say. I actually have much more to say, but I will spare you fellow Coastopians from boredom.

One quick comment to "badbobusnret": Your "Texas" post is pretty typical of the size of Texas egos! In truth, you actually don't have all that you need, nor is the rest of the country as dependent upon Texas as you would like to believe. Your microelectronics "industry" is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the world. I know because I designed many of your facilities. I won't lengthen this post by going into detail. I'm sure that ishie will do that. AND SPEAKING OF ISHIE, re: your earlier post, NO you will NOT meet her in Reno!! I'm her father! ;)

Viva Coastopia (but we STILL need a flag!)
Dan

Dan you're the man. Thank you.

God, you are all so pathetic. I've never seen a political party lose an election so poorly two elections in a row. The right man won, the traitor lost, and now we need to finish what we started in Iraq by grinding the terrorists into dust, then moving on to Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.

By the way, I hate being called an ignorant red-stater. I grew up in NYC, live in Pennsylvania, and have a doctorate. So shove it.

We need a song as well, but none of that bombs bursting in air stuff. I bet there is a wealth of talent here in Coastopia?

Viva Coastopia!
Lynn

Geez Proudly Republican, I can only respond with more of that Cascadian latin,

"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."

(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)

Lighten up sport, I'm guessing, but that doctorate isn't in diplomacy is it?

Mea Culpa fellow Coastopians, I incorrectly referred to Cascadian latin rather than Coastopian latin. Again, I refer to the following website, http://zapatopi.net/cascadia.html
if you would like to learn more about the Cascadian portion of the newly formed Coastopia.

I got caught up in the moment after reading Proudly Republican's I have a doctorate so shove it response. That's it No Ketchup for you!!

Next.

"Proudly Republican's" post was amusing, wasn't it. I'm guessing that his/her doctorate wasn't in either English literature or international affairs either. Judging by the post, the degree is probably in Divinity, and probably by mail order .

To "the other washington": TU, and I like your alternate site. The more the better!!

Dan

Dan, great comments. Coastopia, and the loving comments of its fans brings comfort at a bleak time. There is no state that doesn't have good people in it. There are is no state that doesn't have someone in it who is... less accomodating of other lifestyles, other values, other beliefs, other nations than I am. Coastopia is a release of steam because it is so frustrating to feel unheard over the din of disinformation and electoral college leverage. Let Coastopia's opponents lighten up, and let Coastopia's friends remember that we welcome those who are willing to hold opposing beliefs, provided they are willing to challenge those beliefs. Such challenges and such tolerance of ideas is all for the better. Courtesy is usually a sign of respect for life.

I formally plug "instant run-off", "proportional representation of electoral votes within all states" and perhaps "full representation", and reject "winner take all". This would prevent "splitting the vote" so no one would Ever have to settle for the lesser of two evils, and the Entire voting electorate could concentrate on getting candidates to commit to the issues we all agree on. Getting money out of elections would be a nice trick, too.

PS. Did the someone Actually advocate invading Egypt? Where did That come from?

Yes, that was the doctorate-holder, right there advocating invading our putative allies. Or did I miss another revolution in Egypt?

After reading through most of the posts here, I am very distraught about the state of the soul of our nation. There is a sickness in all of this spewing of hatred. It used to be that people could disagree without resorting to such asinine name-calling. Admittedly, I have on occasion dreamt of secession as a means for my beautiful Southland to be able preserve the conservative family values we hold dear down here. Ah! To be rid of gun-grabbing, God-hating radicals and supremacist judicial activist judges! A sweet dream, to be sure. But, having served this nation in uniform, such thoughts also tear at my heart. We really do have a pretty sweet set-up here. The best damned gig in the world, even with the problems we do have. To those of you who entertain the notion of living in a "Coastopia", which judging by the majority of the posts supporting it, you would have a nation which would be, without a doubt, socialist. Your naivete shows through here. I lived in socialist Europe for over 10 years, and having experienced the beauty and culture of the place, I still don't want to do it again. At least not until the old socialist order there is completely dismantled as they are in the midst of doing because they have discovered that IT DOESN'T WORK! If some of you people would take the time to calm down, take off your Michael Moore blinders and inform yourselves of what is going on outside of our borders, you just might find that what we have here isn't really as shitty as you think it is. But, by God, it could be if your hateful ways prevail. That, by the way, goes for conservative radicals as well as liberal radicals. Both camps, unfortunately, are burdened with supremacists who insist on spewing a message of hate. But the radical liberal mind-set is by far the worse of the two because of its anti-Americanism. How absolutely stupid to want to dismantle the very means by which one can see his dreams come to fruition. Insanity!

SAD, VERY SAD!

"old socialist order there is completely dismantled as they are in the midst of doing because they have discovered that IT DOESN'T WORK!"

Are you sure you were in Europe? You must have got off the plane in the wrong place. I am European and last time I checked (ie this morning) no one was planning to dismantle our socialist state. Actually the new EU constitution, which was completed last month, definately endorses socialsit values. To be honest if someone tried to dismantle our social state, free health care and curbs on predatory business it would unleash mass protests and possible revolution. The day I see European streets filled with homeless teenagers, hospitals turning away the uninsured and big business dictating government policy is the day I make my self a couple of molotov cocktails (you dont really need guns to defend yourself, you know)and hit the streets

p.s. George Bush named Alberto Gonzales, the White House lawyer who advised him he could disregard the "obsolete" Geneva conventions, as America's new attorney general yesterday. Hurray! Another great step for US civilisation.

You guys actually came up with this thing in a Starbucks?

ROFL.

Gee, if you don't like America, take a bus to Canada or Mexico. Pennsylvania will remain with the United States of America.

As you all know last week the greatest democracy of the world (if not the universe) held another passion filled election. This thrilling contest put a neo-con, multinational backed, Christian against , er, Bush. Thanks to it's fabulous democratic record, it's unparalleled freedom and, lets not forget, God's personal support, we were able to see a free and fair election. Any talk of flawed electoral machines, disenfranchisement among black and Hispanic voters, media bias, legal subterfuge and of thousands of voters taken of the electoral rolls is purely communist propaganda.
Seeing as we were all particularly lucky we will see our favorite dictator, George W Bush, win another term in office and thus our great crusade against all evil (particularly if it involves people with slightly darker skin) will continue for years to come. Who knows, we may be able to bomb loads of new and exotic countries like Iran, Syria or North Korea. We will be able to kill thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of little chocolate colored terrorists, some of them only children. We will be able to liberate millions of selfish Arabs of their oil while flooding their countries with good ol uncle Sam’s materialistic products. And if we grovel and beg enough our soldiers will be able to go to war as well. Our own brave lads will be able to kill and mutilate their very own personal victims. And of course our proud countries will be then allowed to stuff themselves at the collective pig trough called reconstruction.
Those benevolent organisations at the pentagon may even back a dozen or so new military coups around the world so that business and free market policies can triumph over those pesky communists who seek to redistribute wealth or simply feed the poor. All those friendly CIA agents will share their knowledge by teaching local intelligence agents all the fabulous intricacies of topics as diverse as the most efficient torture methods and novel ways of intimidating trade unionists.
If we are particularly lucky we will also see a new rise in born again Christian, bible belt morals. All those wicked gays, abortionists and single mothers will be burned at the stake like in the good old times while the bible will replace all those impertinent history and biology books in school. God will look down on his chosen people with pride and angels will descend amongst our overlords amongst cheers of hallelujah! and USA, USA!
Thus, fellow underlings of the american empire it is time to rejoice! Our masters are about to choose which right wing politician will lead them in to another four years of shaping our inferior and surpassed culture in to the image of their own superior and god blessed society. Oh, how I envy my english friends especially. You are so lucky to be america's favourite lap dog amongst the whole pack of yappering and begging mongrels that make up our respective governments. How happy will your leader Blair be when his master is re-elected for another term! What other wacky adventures will they be able to take together! What other wonderful and exotic countries will they be able to bomb back to the stone age!
In conclusion, my friends, this posting is to remind you all to spare a moment tonight to think about how lucky you are and how wonderful the world is. We have another four years of crusading before us, another decade of mindless pre-emptive strikes, another century of american rule.
Long live our masters from across the seas, long live the USA!

Meditate on this. I believe one day there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, where higher consciousness is demonstrated in respect for Mother Earth and Father Sky, where peace on earth and good will toward men is a reality. If things must get worse before they can get better, then let us take courage to endure what lies ahead. America will fall, be sure of that. All the kingdoms of this world will fall, that a new kingdom might be ushered in. Divorce yourself from materialism and the trappings of this present world. Your actions and words are a record of your life. Therefore, refrain from speaking ill of world leaders, for they are divinely appointed to carry out a plan. We are all players on a grand stage and will receive oscars for the roles we played, be it good or bad. Participate with all your might. A Ho!

I have a new name for coastopia. You could call it the U.S.S.C. (Union of Soviet Socialist Coastopia). Guys Socialism has failed every time it has been tried in history. It has also cost hundreds of millions of lives.

Here is a question. Who will run the Gulags? Since there is no Siberia in the U.S.S.C. maybe you could send the political prisoners to sunny Los Angeles. Micheal Moore could run the K.G.B.

Won't it be neat to once again be able to crucify Christians and any one who is repulsed at the thought of two men screwing.

Ahh.. wealth distribution, do you really think Micheal Moore will only keep as much money as the average citizen of Coastopia?

Just some thoughts.

"Socialism has failed every time it has been tried in history"

mike: do you just make this shit up as you go along? How the hell do you come up with this stuff? Name me one country where socialism was the cause of its failure. The soviet union was a comunist country (thus definately NOT socialist) and failed but China (another non socialist but communist country) is the fastest growing economy on the planet.

You might think you have the right to include all of the "blue" states in your move, but you really have only the "counties." Most of the country has red counties. Anyway, good riddance, see you all later. Oh, and by the way, I hope you all get well protected by the Canadian military, and get that great health care they have up there. Better start standing in line for your next surgery now so that it might happen within the next year.

Lupo,
Do YOU make this shit up? It was called the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republic. Communism is Socialism.
If you like to be ruled go ahead, China which you are so proud of might have you. (Wasn't Tiannemen Square just a great example of the enlightened left.

Reply to Ishie:

If hate did go over well, Kerry would be President. Kerry was not painted a traitor by the campaign any more than Bush was painted the next Hitler by Kerry's campaign. Kerry routinely stumped about privitization of SS when he knew it wasn't true. He stumped about a draft that he knew wasn't true. He stumped about lies the President supposedly told even though he had made the exact same assertions. You want to talk about negative, Kerry's campaign was all negative. I didn't see ONE commercial that didn't include some kind of Bush bashing. The "global test" comment was NOT taken out of context. Kerry said it to suggest that he would act pre-emptively if necessary, but he would do it in a way that passed the global test. So liberals get all bunched up because of the mention of the pre-emptive comment. Two things. First, anything before the word "but" is a lie, your fourth grade english teacher can confirm this for you. Second, Kerry's comments conveniently avoid the inevitability that acting pre-emptively may never pass a global test like the situation in Iraq. So in effect, there is a defacto veto power as long as Kerry believes that doing what is right for the country wouldn't be approved by the world community. So dance around his words all day long, but in the end, it's not plausible to suggest that there is always a solution that meets US needs and the global community. With his "global Test" comment, Kerry made it clear that he would not act in a way that was condemnable by the world.

The administration has convinced people that they are the moral party for the little guy because they are and they have a record to run on. Kerry also has a record and none of it suggests that he will do anything for the little guy except raise his taxes for more socialist programs.

Robert

mike: nazism also had the world socialism in its name but it hardly made it a socialist country, wouldnt you say?

Oh come on everybody, Michael Moore said it best in his "17 reasons not to slit your wrists" I think it was, "it is against the law for George Bush to run again." These things come in waves every 35 years or so which means this one is about half over, like the swing of a pendulum. The best thing we can do is stay united as a country, a Civil War was fought over unity already. If you thought 50,000 dead in one day at Gettysburg was bad, do another Civil War here now, it would make the Rwanda genocide in the 90's look like a drunken brawl. Al Qaida cares not that you were a red state or a blue state (a prior suggestion in this thread to let them kill in Texas) did they ask Nick Berg before they cut his head off? No. Did they ask the others? No. Did they ask the 3000 killed in 9-11? Did it matter? No. Republicans didn't secede during the 50's through the 80's when Democrats held the majority in the House and Senate and we had Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter, you can bide your time too. Unity is the only thing that matters whether the Democrats or the Republicans are currently in charge. Imperial Rome became weak when it split into the East and West empires and they were eventually all killed, green party, blue party, (readings from Marcus Aurelius) they all became victims and everybody lost because they divided and one side didn't care when the other side was attacked which weakened both (Edward Gibbons, Rise and Fall of Rome). History has a tendency to repeat if you are not careful and haven't learned the lessons from the past. It is WAY too dangerous to split if you want your children to have a future and your own life to have mattered to anyone when you are gone.

Well, I'm a little late to this party, and I want to thank you so much for the Coastopia post. It was balm to my poor, wounded soul. Frankly, I'm as angry at the Democrats for not getting the whole sales thing right. Please, God, give us another Bill Clinton, who knew how to speak to the red states.

I'm crying inside for my gay friends, who are simply crying. I hurt for the people who will be denied health care and a living wage. I will pick myself up from this, and get back to being an activist, but I'm so glad to know I have friends in Coastopia. I live in California, so I have some consolation, but we have the Governator, so it's not all good.

The ignorance so deplored in these posts is intentional, people. The right has systematically gotten people on school boards so it can take all independent thinking out of schools. Civics is no longer taught, so people don't know how the government works, or what they're voting (or not voting) for.

It feels like Nuremburg, 1936,to me. (I wasn't alive then, but I'm a student of history) Remember, the people voted en masse for Hitler. He didn't do it by himself, he did it just the way Shrub is doing it.

My only hope lies in the tendency of the extreme right to shoot itself in the foot just when it gets powerful.

In the meantime, I'm glad to be able to take respite in Coastopia. Thank you,

tina

What about those of us surrounded by non-blue states??? Can we get a life preserver??

Being from Kansas City, MO, I resemble that remark. Us lovers of blue are dwindling in the heartland except for isolated and easily defeated islands like Lawrence, KS and Columbia, MO and certain areas of downtown KC and St. Louis. Please leave plenty of bedrolls and hot toddies out for us when we arrive. I assume we will have to travel by underground railroad and feel for the moss on the northern side of trees.

Response to Tina:

Bill Clinton, who knew how to speak to the red states. Yes, but he didn't know how to represent the red states.

I'm crying inside for my gay friends, who are simply crying. I cried for 8 years, it is someone elses turn. Besides, they continue to lead the lifestyle of their choice and nobody proposes to interfere. It's never been more cool to be gay!

I hurt for the people who will be denied health care and a living wage. They are comforted by the fact that you feel their pain. At least they would if there was actually anyone who was actually "denied" these things. Nobody denies that there is a health care crisis, but please don't pretend that democrats are the only ones who care. We have a different plan but just because you believe it doesn't work doesn't mean that we don't care. Employment is raising and unemplyment is falling as the economy continues to rebound thanks to Bush.

The right has systematically gotten people on school boards so it can take all independent thinking out of schools. Hmm, we must have learned that one from liberals who have taken God out and contraceptives and abortions in with the same tactics.

Remember, the people voted en masse for Hitler. He didn't do it by himself, he did it just the way Shrub is doing it. This is the sickest and most dispicable malignment that anyone could make against Bush. If you think Bush is like Hitler, you are completely void of any knowledge of early 20th century Germany or you are psychologically depraved.

My only hope lies in the tendency of the extreme right to shoot itself in the foot just when it gets powerful. Assuming that you are speaking metaphorically, why on earth would an American patriot want bad things to happen to their fellow countrymen/women????? Do you actually want bad things to happen to American people so that your fragile ego is esuaged in some ill begotten vindication? Does anyone else see this as sick? Why wouldn't you wish for good things even if they come as a result of Republican movements???? It's assenine statements like this that cause people to question your patriotism.

Robert

Posted by: mike at November 11, 2004 08:28 AM
Lupo,
Do YOU make this shit up? It was called the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republic. Communism is Socialism.
If you like to be ruled go ahead, China which you are so proud of might have you. (Wasn't Tiannemen Square just a great example of the enlightened left.

And East Germany was called the "Democratic Republic" are you testing us ?

Nebo

"left wing right wing, damm it takes two for the bird to fly" Nebo c. 2000

Robert, Do you think you could use your Spell-Check when you write? Otherwise people are going to think that you are really dumb - Oh, wait! -- they already do, after reading your comments about the debates and your interpretation (from O'Really, Limbaugh, or Hannity??) of "Global Test"; also about the Republicans being the "moral party" for the little guy (I nearly wet my pants laughing at that one!), not to mention that you think no one here is "denied" a job or health care. Did you know that Bush includes all newly-activated military as NEW JOBS CREATED !???!!! How's that for cooking the books? Oh, by the way, I AM in health care, and if you think it's a mess now, I can guarantee you that it's going to get worse (and it doesn't have much to do with MD's high malpractice premiums.)

Coastopia, I'm with you -- these non-thinking, Bible-thumping Middle America types scare the hell out of me, and make me worry for the future of their country.

HEY!! Wisconsin is a BLUE STATE

Dont leave us with the Neanderthals !

European- Yes I was on the right plane and got off in the right place. And now that we have established the fact that you are somewhat lacking as a comedian, I can point out the following facts. In Germany, specifically, the government is looking to save money and boost productivity and business opportunities wherever possible. If you care to check the news, you will find that the social insurance benefits there are on the way to being reduced and limited. I know for a fact that there are now patient costs paid out of pocket that didn't exist when I lived there. I can still remember when co-pays for medications were introuduced for the first time. The government is now looking at just how much the extended vacations that they are allotted are hindering the economy. Another government study. The notion of privatizing pension schemes is again in the air. Private savings now have to be exhausted for long term care before the government picks up the tab. They are whittling away the benefits little by little because SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK. It can't be sustained. I was amazed during a trip back there last year at just how many changes have taken place as pertains to the social benefit system. As for the EU, damned few people there really give a damn about it. Its an organization with a constitution that has been foisted upon the Europeans, and opposition to it has always been there and in some ways is growing. Go ahead and dispute this if you like. I just can't understand how people can't look at the most prime example of the failure of socialism, the USSR, and not grasp the lessons there that beckon to be learned.

Robert,
Although your posts have shown more thought than most of the right wing simplistic sloganism and name calling, but I must take issue with you on your response to Tina’s post.

“I cried for 8 years, it is someone elses turn. Besides, they continue to lead the lifestyle of their choice and nobody proposes to interfere. It's never been more cool to be gay!”

Why were YOU crying? Was it simply that a Democrat was in office? I have survived under many Republican administrations without tears. Lest you haven’t kept abreast of the news, there is growing support in the newly elected right wing (NOT simply Republican) administration and Congress to re-initiate a Federal bill to ban gay marriages. I doubt that this news, combined with so much recent ultra conservative gay bashing makes them feel very “cool” at this point.

“At least they would if there was actually anyone who was actually "denied" these things” (i.e.: healthcare benefits)

Granted, these things are not denied if one has sufficient money. Where have you been during the past four years?

“Nobody denies that there is a health care crisis”

Why is there a health care crisis, and what steps have been taken by the Bush administration to correct this???

“but please don't pretend that democrats are the only ones who care. We have a different plan but just because you believe it doesn't work doesn't mean that we don't care.”

Funny, I didn’t read that anywhere in Tina’s post. Based on the history of the current administration, forgive me if I wait to see what kind of magic trick will be pulled from the right wing hat. You may have faith in Bush, but we have seen nothing to justify such faith.

“Employment is raising and unemplyment is falling as the economy continues to rebound thanks to Bush.”

Who got us into this economic crisis? As for a rebound, once again, I must take a wait and see approach. Some jobs have been REGAINED, and the stock market rose after the election with the most outstanding performers being energy and drug companies. Now there’s a surprise!

“The right has systematically gotten people on school boards so it can take all independent thinking out of schools.” - TINA
“Hmm, we must have learned that one from liberals who have taken God out and contraceptives and abortions in with the same tactics.”

Again, you are confusing independent thinking with perceived Christian doctrines. God does indeed belong in schools. They are known as “Sunday schools”. It is the right wing that has consistently tried to undermine the separation of church and state by trying to ban the teaching of evolution and promote Christian prayers in public schools. As a moderate Christian, I believe that God should be in my life, but NOT in our government or public institutions. Atheists, agnostics, and people of all faiths are equal under our constitution.

“If you think Bush is like Hitler, you are completely void of any knowledge of early 20th century Germany or you are psychologically depraved.”

I saw nothing in Tina’s post equating Bush to Hitler. I believe the point was that bad leaders can, and often are, supported by a popular majority. I suggest that YOU re-read your early 20th century history. In his early years, Hitler was very popular amongst the German people.

“My only hope lies in the tendency of the extreme right to shoot itself in the foot just when it gets powerful.”-TINA
“why on earth would an American patriot want bad things to happen to their fellow countrymen/women?????”

Shooting oneself in the foot is a very popular euphemism for screwing up! I saw NO implication that bad things were in any way supported. Correct me if I am mistaken, Tina, but I believe that you were simply referring to the fact that extremists of any ilk in this country tend to stumble before they can cause catastrophic damage.

“Why wouldn't you wish for good things even if they come as a result of Republican movements????”

If this administration can cause good things to happen, I doubt that anyone here would object. But, so far there is little reason to expect good things to happen unless one is a Christian fundamentalist who wishes to force his/her beliefs on others. Obviously the very wealthy and the major energy, drug, and insurance companies like what is happening as well.

May I humbly suggest that you read the posts more carefully before replying.
Thank you,
Dan

Lest I be jumped on for using poor grammar, I inadvertantly screwed up the sentence structure of the opening line in my last post :-) . Any errors in sentences surrounded by quotation marks were simply copied from Robert's post.

Lynn mentioned a song yesterday. I propose that we simply take "My Country 'tis of Thee". Although the first line suggests that the country exists because of God, the rest alludes to liberty, freedom, and Pilgrim's pride. These are values that the ultra right wing does not support except as it applies to them. Of course, we'll have to change the melody to something other than that of "God Save the Queen" :-)
Dan

Just checking in on Coastopia. It is a lovely autumn day here in Coastopia west and I was thinking it would just be fabulous to see Eastern Coastopia now. I hear the Fall Colors are just brilliant in New England. And then I was pondering about the Healthcare issue......

Coastopia received a post above from an tourist who says no one in the US gets denied
healthcare.
I am sad to tell you this is not true. ( want to say what rock having you been hiding under, but since being Coastopized, I am trying to take a civil stance, manners after all are very important in Coastopia.)

The tale... You're 26 years old and you inadvertantly slip off the roof while you are adjusting your dish, Crack open your head, your wrist is broken. The medics come, take you to the nearest emergency hospital, or I should say the nearest emergency hospital that takes indigent cases. Next thing you know they are telling you they have detected a lump in your throat which really needs to come out to make sure it is benign. You have no insurance. Who pays the medic, the emergency room, the hospital admission, then the discharge with a handful of prescriptions that cost about $488 to fill? Who pays your bill?, The government? Medicaid wouldn't cover this guy. Not on disability, Not old, No kids.
Our guy has several thousands of dollars in medical bills and maybe more in the future due to skipping on filling the prescriptions because he didn't have the cash. (after the infection flared up he ended up losing him job because they had to fill it ,gosh we're sorry but you were out 10 days.) The follow up Doctor assigned to his case wouldn't see him without cash up front, so he ended up pulling out his own stiches. The surgical doctor you were referred to won't see you or schedule the surgery for the lump without insurance or cash. (this is not the Docs fault, they are overwhelmed with indigent cases, they don't work for free and why should they?)

This scenerio occurs every day all over this country.

I don't know where folks are getting their information about the Canadian system, which agreed, has flaws but no where near the issues the U.S. has.
My mother lives near the Canadian border. The seniors load up the buses, & get prescriptions. It is a fun day trip and if going into Vancouver, man they have great, I mean great restaurants there. The prescriptions are so much cheaper it pays to take a trip up north including the meal. Whats up with that?

The Victoria Clipper runs from Seattle to Victoria is currently running a getaway special which includes a fun day in Victoria and a flu shot. THAT is how it is being advertised. (I hear a Seinfeld episode looming on this one, you just can't make this stuff up).

About every other person I know who as had that lazer eye surgery had it done in Canada as it is at least 1/2 the price which includes your gas/ferry to get there. Again just a little day jaunt.

If their system is as bad as you have been lead to believe you think they would be offering this to Americans? Some would make it sound like they have as large lines to see a Doctor in Canada as we have on election day.

And our guy in the 1st scenerio would have gotten his medical treatment and still be a hard working taxpaying citizen. (I think is name is Murphy).

Oh another thing I wanted to bring up. I think the Viola should be the Coastopia flower. I've noticed some of the tourists on this site have called Coastopians Pansies enough to warrant this gem with a happy face the official flower of Coastopia. Perhaps the pansy could be incorporated into the official flag.

Can Coastopia have a rock n roll song in addition to an anthem? Won't Get Fooled Again by the Who is one that comes to mind. (and it gives equal soul searching for both left and right).

I'm just verifying my claim re the Flu shot special.

Here's the link to the Victoria Clipper website and scroll down to see flu shot special.

http://www.victoriaclipper.com/

The consensus I hear from Canada is we all have been alien abducted. (maybe the rapure has happened and the pod people are taking over) I hope someone tells them relief is here, Coastopia borders much of our patient neighbors'to the North. I think they will let us borrow "American Woman" by the Guess Who and love to be the neighbor of Coastopia.

Yet another flu shot special. There's a wee bit of a dig there about the timely and efficient healthcare system of America..
http://www.onlinefit.com/products/index.cfm/Category/346

First of all, I have to commend my dad on his excellent post. You were far more articulate than I have been. You also have far more life experience in seeing the progression of politics and world experience in your travels of the world.
----------------
Oh by the way, I'm a capitalist. Again with the liberal paint brushes. Though fraught with the potential for abuse, capitalism increases competition which decreases prices and makes a market for better products and services. The health care system in this country, DOES need help though. I don't think that one should live or die based on how much money they have.

Where I do get critical is when big business is in bed with the legislative authority. Being for capitalism does not mean being in favor of letting it go unchecked, unaccountable, and having government license to do so. I do not feel that it is right for businesses to be able to circumvent clean air laws (we have to breathe the air!) that we as citizens have to follow because they've poured enough money into campaign contributions. I believe they must be held accountable when they engage in flagrantly illegal activities and not with official "I'm sorry" hearings. They cause long term harm to more people than a drug dealer, so by all means, treat them like a drug dealer. How about a ten year minimum sentence for some of the shennanigans they've been playing? When the CEO can go from being a billionare to trading cigarettes for favors, maybe he'll think long and hard about cheating all his employees out of their pensions.

The Bush administration is in bed with many of these corporations, but he's a friend to the little guy!! He is!! The fact that grandpa has to greet people at Wal-Mart because the company he worked at for decades cheated him when the heads of the company are still wealthy beyond dreams and had government help doesn't mean Bush isn't for the little guy. Creating tax cuts for the rich in the middle of a recession and then pouring YOUR tax money into bombing and subsequently rebuilding another country doesn't mean Bush isn't for the little guy. Keeping you and/or your kids in the military to fight a ridiculous war way past your/their rotation doesn't mean he isn't for the little guy. Making huge cuts to state programs doesn't mean he isn't for the little guy. He has an accent. He's for 'family values' (even though Chelsea Clinton and the Kerry girls seem a lot closer to values than his daughters). That makes him good for Middle America. He cares about them. He said so himself.

Please. Tax cuts to the rich, SUV owners, etc? The most SUVs I've ever seen has been in urban Los Angeles. You guys think he's representing you?
--------

For the proposition of Texas leaving. Okay! Few funny things. First off, if Kerry had won, and a webpage like this emerged about Texas, I wouldn't go into a rampaging snit about them being whiners and telling them to go f- themselves, or telling them that if they try it, I'm going to unleash some military whoopass on them. I'd figure they were blowing off steam about the election, and it's perfectly healthy.

Second of all, Texas may want to take a cue from Coastopia. Being your own nation is fine, and Texas certainly has a number of resources that will help it thrive. California will do well also, particularly since we won't have to sell out our power. Isolating yourself to the extent you've described may not be the best bet. Free trade is a wonderful thing. Of course, if you do so, it's your business.

One thing that may spark retaliation from the "others" (and other countries) is that if you attempt to do things like shut down other people's satellite systems, chances are *someone* will bomb you. Particularly if just Texas separates without any other states, my guess is that you're going to have a hard time defending yourself from the equally well-armed factions of the rest of the South over missing television. Americans take their tv seriously. It would be fair for Americans and Coastopians to FUND their own satellites. Personally, I can take or leave tv, so don't worry, I won't be one of the ones arming against you.

We'll be fine on the oil situation, so that is okay. Our governor will be crushed though. If you want to FULLY isolate yourselves, you might want to increase your funding for NASA preemptively. Though everyone hates Bill Gates, suddenly having no access to the outside computer industry may be a hard blow. If you're willing to trade with nations OTHER than America and Coastopia, you'll probably be fine. Total isolation will probably require a change in lifestyle.

But on behalf of Coastopia, whom you're welcome to trade with if you so desire, I would welcome Texas' independence, and feel free to leave if a future election leaves you feeling as we feel now.

Ishie

Dear fellow Coastopians,
I see that it is a slow day on the site. This is, hopefully, due to the fact that many people have a holiday today. I sincerely hope that interest hasn’t waned! Since I have some free time, I wanted to address the recent debate that has been occurring on this site regarding Socialism and Communism. I will start by correcting one of the posters who said that Socialism and Communism were the same. I suggest that the poster read Marx, Lenin, and Trotsky to get the facts. To all of the right wing flamers who immediately want to start throwing stones at me, let me simply say that I have read many books, including the bible cover to cover. This simply means that I am literate :-). Communism is a POLITICAL system, whereas Socialism is an ECONOMIC system.

With that out of the way, how did this debate start? Did I miss a post wherein someone suggested that Coastopia adopt Socialism as its economic system? Personally, I do not think that Socialism is the best system for our new nation. Many of our allies, or at least some of the few that we have left :-), have Socialist economic systems. How well or poorly it is working in any given nation is a subject that could be debated for years. Its efficacy entirely depends upon the nation under discussion as well as the spin put on “facts” due to individual’s economic leanings.

That is not the point, however. I strongly suspect that this debate erupted as a result of the confusion in definitions by right wing advocates. Being a liberal or having liberal tendencies has NOTHING to do with Socialism. Mrs. G posted the actual definition of “liberal” here on 11/7. It is as follows:

"Liberal:
1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or
authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress,
and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism."

While I greatly enjoy most of the debates in this forum so graciously provided by Ian, I really don’t enjoy being a mere fact checker. In order to keep this site alive and interesting, I encourage all posters to check their own facts before submitting their posts. A bit of spell checking would also be appreciated :-).
Now that Ian has appropriately shut down the name callers, some of the discussion could get quite interesting.

Who knows, Coastonians, we might even be able to slightly reduce the amount of manure that is permitting the shrub to grow and flourish! :-)
Keep Coastonia alive and well!!
Dan

AND you can get practically anything on EBay anyway shipped right to your door. Golly gee if it isn't on E Bay I probably don't need it.

And yes Ishie, your Dad has presented thoughtful and articulate ideas. He is a welcomed diplomat of Coastopia. He rocks.

I am grateful most of the Coastopians have retained their quick witted sense of humor in the midst of some shall I say, colorful language. Where's the Holy Spirit when you need him...whoops, her, whoops, thee.

"If hate did go over well, Kerry would be President."

If hate didn't go over well, Jim Bunning wouldn't be a senator. "limp wristed"? Come on!

"Kerry was not painted a traitor by the campaign any more than Bush was painted the next Hitler by Kerry's campaign."

I'm not in a swing state, but I missed the campaign ads where well funded organizations with close ties to the Kerry camp called Bush Hitler? I saw "Bush is a Nazi" on a lot of signs held up by protestors, but I don't usually judge a candidate based on what jobless people can do with cardboard. I don't claim that there isn't a lot of hate against Bush. I've met a few pro-Kerry people, but they're few and far between. Mostly, I meet anti-Bush people, because Kerry's whole appeal is that he isn't Bush. I never denied that. So that people voting against Bush would hate Bush is hardly a surprise to me. I'm talking about campaign tactics. Both sides were bad (per usual). What I saw coming directly from the Bush camp or those very closely tied to his administration was worse than what I saw out of the Kerry camp. The Swift Boat Veterans, of course, top the list. Also funny is that some of Bush's strongest detractors were defectors from his own administration. *That* spoke VERY strongly to me. So did the subsequent action by the Bush camp to disavow themselves of any association with the defectors. They slammed people with decades of political service, including under his own administration as traitors and dissidents and ill informed, even when what these people are saying backs up what independent investigations are saying.

They're not even nice to their own people. Of course part of my dislike of the Bush tactics is leftover from the struggles with McCain in the 2000 election, which I found disgusting. I've watched McCain now give pro-Bush speeches, which is disappointing, but I've never seen him look particularly thrilled about it when he did. In the early stages, he looked almost ill.

"He stumped about a draft that he knew wasn't true."

There is a backdoor draft. I didn't get that from Kerry. I've gotten that from seeing it myself. If Bush continues on a path of invading countries in his ever growing "Axis of Evil" while continuing to keep troops in Iraq, he will need a draft. Military recruitment is quite understandably down. We still have people in Afghanistan. In the meantime, we are leaving our country pretty open. If we're so concerned with Homeland Security, shouldn't we have more of our troops protecting the Homeland? And isn't a little hypocritical to use the National Guard to circumvent Vietnam and then kick members of the NG into Iraq?

I'm concerned about a draft. I was before Kerry tried ineffectively to use it. I am not concerned with one in the next year or so, but over the next FOUR years? Heck yes!! If "freeing people from oppression" and "spreading democracy", currently our ONLY justification for this war since the other excuses have fallen flat is a policy for invasion of another country, we're going to need a draft! Do you have any idea how many dictators there are on this planet?

"He stumped about lies the President supposedly told even though he had made the exact same assertions."

Lies the president did tell. We wanted to crucify Clinton for lying despite the fact his lies didn't affect us. Isn't it relevant that Bush lied too? I'm sure Kerry has lied as well. Those are important points to bring up. If Bush talked about where Kerry lied, I don't call that "hate". When he's calling him a "Massachusetts liberal", a "flip-flopper", and his people are calling him a traitor for fighting in a war he didn't, I call that hate. Criticism isn't hate.

I didn't mind the criticism of Kerry's senate record, either. What I did mind was the deliberate trumping up of claims by counting the number of times something was mentioned in ONE bill which he voted against to make it look like larger numbers. If a bill says something about a raise in taxes, you can't just take the pieces you like. If the bill says "raise this tax a quarter percent, this by one percent", etc twenty three times, Bush has "Kerry voted to raise taxes twenty-three times!" Come on. Also, I have seen the commercial showing Kerry making a no vote. It lists a number of issues and shows Kerry saying "No" on all of them, making him look anti-military. It was a vote against ONE bill, so they play the clip repeatedly. Common technique on comedy shows. So they trumped up his senate record.

"You want to talk about negative, Kerry's campaign was all negative. I didn't see ONE commercial that didn't include some kind of Bush bashing."

Kerry started the campaign on a rather positive foot. He and the Democrats apparently realized they were "the lesser of two evils" so emphasized where Bush has screwed up. I never denied that, nor said Kerry ran a campaign based on love and leadership. What I am saying is that claiming "voters don't like the hate" flies in face of a rather substantial amount of it poured from the Bush camp. Admittedly, the Republicans are just far better at it.

My feeling is that where the Democrats made a huge mistake was in not taking a more decisive stand against Bush. Not in the direction of hate and lies, but taking him to task for absolutely everything he's done wrong, and it's a long list. The story on the loss of our weapons in Iraq came out like a week before the election, and that sort of thing should be a 'breaker', but it wasn't well handled by the Democrats.

I think the Democrats made a huge mistake in trying to be middle of the road on BUSH issues, not party issues. They have a candidate going "Well... I voted to grant power to invade Iraq, but I wouldn't have done it that way, but I was feeling really pressured to vote yes because he said I was with terrorists if I didn't, which makes me kind of a wimp." I fully agree that they didn't really have a position to begin with because they were starting with someone who laid down to Bush. They needed a candidate that said to hell with coddling Bush like the reporters do; YOU LIED TO US!!!! Over a thousand soldiers are dead because you lied!!

"The "global test" comment was NOT taken out of context. Kerry said it to suggest that he would act pre-emptively if necessary, but he would do it in a way that passed the global test."

AFTER that he continued to drone on about what exactly he meant, and it wasn't "ask France". It was very reasonable.

"So liberals get all bunched up because of the mention of the pre-emptive comment."

I think pre-emptive wars need to be VERY carefully examined. Otherwise one could argue that 9/11 was not a terrorist attack; it was a pre-emptive strategic strike on government and economic targets. Since we obviously now DO pose a threat to the Muslim world, we seem to have proved them right. Since I DO think 9/11 was murder, and I DO think there should not be a precedent set for bombing people you suspect of something, I do think it should be pretty hard to do. They had far more evidence to convict OJ than Bush had to go into Iraq and now thousands of people are dead. If we were any other country, the UN would have sent in troops AGAINST us.

"Two things. First, anything before the word "but" is a lie, your fourth grade english teacher can confirm this for you."

Pithy slogans should not be used to determine policy. If we are going to discuss what my fourth grade English teacher told me (which didn't include "anything before the word 'but' is a lie", we probably shouldn't approach Bush's speeches, nor his poor performance in the debates. Apparently when you make people sign loyalty oaths at your public appearances, your discourse skills get a little weak.

"Second, Kerry's comments conveniently avoid the inevitability that acting pre-emptively may never pass a global test like the situation in Iraq."

The situation in Iraq shouldn't have passed a 'global test', nor did it. They didn't have weapons of mass destruction and didn't pose a threat to us. Seems to me that maybe if we'd listened to France, Germany, and the majority of the world rather than occupying ourselves with renaming food and pouring out wines for which we had already paid (when I saw that on the news, by the way, I laughed so hard I cried), we might have a few more soldiers coming home to their families, a better economic standing, and a better world position.

"So dance around his words all day long,"

Who is dancing? You made the claim that the people aren't swayed by hate, when quite clearly they are. You dance around the Bush administration's clearly hateful activities along with a history of polls showing the success of smear campaigns, while denouncing Kerry as being inconsistant and hypocritical, which I agreed with in the first place!

Really the only place you might see me "dancing" is on the 'global test' statement. That is due to seeing Kerry explain the position, shrugging and figuring it was a good idea, and then later seeing Condy talk about the 'global test' in a completely different context and going "huh?"

When Kerry genuinely screws up, I'm the first to admit it. I cringed both times when he and Edwards dragged Dick Cheney's daughter into the fray. Not only was it immature (and more representative of being hateful and petty than the claims you brought up), but it was awkward and obvious. I also have to admit (painful as it is), that in a rare departure from his usual nefarious "I torture puppies" manner of address, Cheney handled it exceptionally well.

"With his "global Test" comment, Kerry made it clear that he would not act in a way that was condemnable by the world."

LOL, in years past, this would have been considered a good quality. By the way...

--"No President, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to pre-empt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

"But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people, understand fully why you're doing what you're doing, and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."--

There's no dancing. He does not say or implicate he's going to ask other countries for permission, though Bush, Rice, and many others have stated DIRECTLY that is what he means. Though the world was against us, HAD we found WMDs, a budding nuclear program, and/or wide undeniable support for the 9/11 attacks, that WOULD have justified the Iraq war to the world. We would have known why we went in. It would have passed the 'global test', despite those who said we shouldn't go in.

Since we gunslung in on our own without adequate evidence, we have a war where even the Americans that support it cannot usually give the reason we're there. Many cite an involvement by Saddam's regime in 9/11, which our OWN intelligence reports isn't true.

"The administration has convinced people that they are the moral party for the little guy because they are and they have a record to run on."

What record? First of all, I'm pro choice, but while Bush has rattled a lot of cages about abortion, he hasn't really done much to stem the tide. Gay marriage is pretty much the ONLY 'moral' issue he's pushed hard. Banning gay marriage doesn't help the little guy. It convinces some little guys that the administration gives a s--- what they think.

He is moral choice for the little guy, but he executed more people on Death Row than any other governor? I'm also pro-death penalty by the way, though I don't understand why so many Christians are, but considering the number of problems they've been finding with the death penalty (like a third of people being released off death row because DNA evidence proved they didn't do the crime) means one might want to be a little less trigger happy. Or at least, reform the system.

He cut taxes for the richest, and threw some change at the little guy to placate him. In the meantime, the living expenses in this country have gone up while the average salaries have gone down. Jobs have been at a record down, and they've stooped to tactics like calling burger-flipping a "manufacturing job". Yeah, that minimum wage paycheck will feed a family. Maybe they can take the two hundred return from the government and buy a nice junked car to live in. Gas prices have been at an all time high. We jump at every 'lowering' of prices and fail to notice we are paying more than we ever have. $2.30 a gallon here? I was ticked off when gas prices TEMPORARILY jumped to $1.80 and then dropped back again. We've been paying well over two bucks a gallon now for well over a year. I do not drive a gas gorging SUV. I drive a tiny hyundai that gets about 30 mph. It's still a financial strain. If I could afford an SUV, then I might be able to also afford fueling it. I could at least afford to sell the SUV and get an economy car.

"Kerry also has a record and none of it suggests that he will do anything for the little guy except raise his taxes for more socialist programs."

Right now, despite having a full time job, I have no health care. Fortunately, I'm young and healthy. Many cannot afford health care, cannot pay their bills and the system is absorbing it anyway. Kids are uncovered. Hospitals cut staffing leading to inadequate healthcare for everyone. I'm not a "socialist", though as a liberal, I get called one, but right now I'll take a 'socialist' plan above no plan.

Besides, I'm all for tax cuts in some situations. I don't like that the government gets over a quarter of my check (I make squat, in case you're wondering), particularly since I know that part of it is going to storm Fallujah. I also know that cutting taxes when you are in the midst of an economic recession and the worst deficit in history is a bad idea. I don't like taxes, but I don't like cuts to schools and emergency services even more.

By the way, to all who seem confused on this... someone is not "strengthening the economy" when you are deeply in debt with thousaneds of lost jobs and there's a hiccup or a policy that starts to slow the downward momentum. Generally, the stock market wavers before an election due to uncertainty and gets a small spike after an election, particularly when an incumbent president is re-elected.

With Clinton, we had a huge budget surplus. No matter what you want to blame on him, we were in the black when he left office. We now have a record deficit. How about a little accountability? As a recent student, I am in debt. I got by pretty well, and only needed to borrow about 8 thousand dollars for college.

This isn't a lot of money even as far as college debt is concerned. It's certainly nothing compared to the country's debt. Now, if I go from 8 thousand dollars to FOUR thousand dollars in debt, that is a significant, noteworthy improvement. If I go from 8 thousand dollars in debt to $7,998 in debt, that is not worth mentioning. Heck, if I call my loan officers and ask them to just GIVE me the two bucks, they probably would.

Commending Bush for finally having a slight uptrend in what was a straight trainride to Hell seems a bit much. Kerry was right on the money by pointing out how much less the 'created' jobs pay, and we still have a major net job loss.

Ishie

Hi Ishie and the other Washington,

Thank you for your kind comments. I have thoroughly enjoyed the posts by you both. I’m afraid that I am a bit partial to Ishie’s posts. It’s that father, daughter thing you know. What can I say :-).

It may be wishful thinking, but it seems that the posts here are moving onto a higher plain. I just hope that the right wing element hasn’t taken their toys and gone home in frustration :-). We need their dissent for comic relief if nothing else!
Dan

LOL....yes indeedee, the post from the good Doctor had me thinking...is this for real?? (I have a Doctorate, Shove it post). Was this baiting or does someone out there REALLY want to invade much of the middle east, Afganistan and Iraq are only the appetizers?

We can add a line to the song, "Where have all the Soldiers Gone", to Where will all the soldiers come from?? I'm thinking the Canadian Armed Forces which some have tried to dis a bit on these pages may be our hope if some disaster hits home, because our National Guard will be over seas if Dr.Shove it had his way.

When they start calling up reserves that qualify to get an AARP card and have been out of the "Biz" several years, I get a little worried. It says to me we have bitten off more than we can chew.

i must thank the bible belt from saving me 'a northie' from my own doom. the US has now elected such a strong and unwaivering leader who will lead us in a "new direction". it feels good to know that so many people had my best intrests in mind when this whole election thing happened.

lets put the new capital of coastopia in the heartland. they do know best.

the other washington,

Sadly, "Dr. shove it" is far from being alone in his warped viewpoint. There are large numbers of right wing slime balls...er, I mean individuals who would like to see the entire nation of Islam distroyed. After that it will probably be either the Jews or the blacks. As I mentioned earlier, justification for the war in Iraq is inconsequential to the extremists. They see us as fighting a holy war against the heathen hordes. On the plus side, these extremists are not in the majority even amongst right wingers.

In my life (41 years), I have never heard a "Right Winger" talk about hating blacks, muslims, or any other group. I have heard much hate spewed about anyone who does not walk in lock step with the democratic view point.
I am finishing my Masters this semester, and any student with a view other than the left leaning view knows to stay silent.
I would like to vote democratic for some issues but with the hate the extreme left has toward anyone of a Christian Faith I can not do this.
Until Democrats start truly practicing "tolerance" we will always be a minority party.

I noticed you sell t-shirts 'made in the USA'. Do you plan on opening trade relations with us?

Responses to Erika, Dan and Ishie.....

Erika,

Bush doesn't have anything to do with the reports coming from the Labor Department and in case you haven't checked the latest, there was another 337,000 jobs created on October alone. If it makes you feel better to suggest that I have to get my opinion from conservative pundits, it's ok but please don't think you can actually marginalize my opinion because on November 2, I voted just like you (presumably). Also, make what you will of my typos, your personal attack means nothing to me.

Dan,

"there is growing support in the newly elected right wing (NOT simply Republican) administration and Congress to re-initiate a Federal bill to ban gay marriages" Agreed and it is certainly something that gays would be concerned about, but there is also good news on the horizon. Bush has parted with the party platform and stated that he would support civil or domestic union. This would grant the same rights and assuage the fears of the Christian right. I am with him on this. Gays should have all the same rights and they will of they can get over the semantical hurdle. Last thing here is that nothing has been taken from gays so it's not as if they are moving backwards.

"Why is there a health care crisis, and what steps have been taken by the Bush administration to correct this???" Another fair question. I think Bush needs to take one on the chin here, but he did have some pretty pressing issues to deal with. We can criticize the President for not doing enough in his first term or we can recognize that it's a complex crisis, that was building well before Bush and requires a unified effort to solve. Also, fighting a war on terror in the wake of the worst terrorist attack ever on the heels of a recession is pretty taxing for any President.

"You may have faith in Bush, but we have seen nothing to justify such faith." And you saw something in Kerry to justify faith in him?

"Who got us into this economic crisis?" Glad you asked. The recession was first identified in March of 2001, three months into Bush's term. On the face of it, it seems it might be a Bush recession even though all economic indicators starting falling the last six months of Clinton's Presidency. But the real important factor here is that Bush's FIRST economic plan wasn't introduced to Congress until September of 2001. So since Clinton's economic policies were still in effect before, during and following the official declaration of recession, it would see as if it is a Clinton recession. Then the attack of 9/11 exacerbated the problem.

"you are confusing independent thinking with perceived Christian doctrines" No, I am only comparing the tactics for change. If liberals want to get all broken nosed about conservatively influenced school boards, they are hypocritical. They deployed the exact tactics to move their agenda.

"I saw nothing in Tina’s post equating Bush to Hitler"................Tina's quote "It feels like Nuremburg, 1936,to me. Remember, the people voted en masse for Hitler. He didn't do it by himself, he did it just the way Shrub is doing it." Dan, open your eyes, the comparison is right before your eyes. Tina swallowed the moveon.org propaganda that compared Bush to Hitler.

"Shooting oneself in the foot is a very popular euphemism for screwing up! " I addressed this with "Assuming that you are speaking metaphorically" so we agree on that. My point was that in order for them to "screw up" would invariably mean that the country is run poorly and our problems are exacerbated. Why would anyone want that?

"there is little reason to expect good things to happen unless one is a Christian fundamentalist who wishes to force his/her beliefs on others" Wanting to preserve things the way they are isn't forcing anyone's beliefs on others. Quite the opposite is true. It is gays that are forcing their beliefs on the rest of us. Just because their beliefs are agnostic versus religious doesn't make their efforts justifiable.

"May I humbly suggest that you read the posts more carefully before replying." You can suggest anything you want and you to can criticize me on a personal level if it helps you feel better about your positions.

ISHIE

"I missed the campaign ads where well funded organizations with close ties to the Kerry camp called Bush Hitler" They are called moveon.org, which is sponsored by George Soros, which has the same proximity to Kerry that the Swift Boat Vets had to Bush. And yes, they compared Bush to Hitler. Ask Erika, she seems to have seen it.

"I'm talking about campaign tactics. Both sides were bad " Kerry didn't have an ad that didn't lie about Bush. Lies are hate! Bush often spoke about his accomplishments, his plans and his vision without mentioning his opponent. Kerry never opened his mouth without a lie to say about Bush. All the man had was hate, lies and more hate.

"Bush's strongest detractors were defectors from his own administration" Not true at all. Bush's strongest detractors were flaming liberals like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, Terry McAauliff and hollywood types like Barbara Streishand, Chevy Chase and Bruce Springstein. There was a fired ex-Secretary of the Treasury, so maybe you're right, his own people do hate him.

"They're not even nice to their own people" And your example is what? I know the democrats that threw Kerry a picnic in the summer at Sorgels Farm in Western Pennsylvania. All the volunteers were asked not to approach the Senator and that he would address them privately afterwards. He showed up for less than a minute, didn't talk to anyone personally and didn't shake any hands and left. Hows that a way to say thanks?

"I've watched McCain now give pro-Bush speeches, which is disappointing" Why? Because he refused to allow liberals to create a rift and divide the party? McCain certainly had a reason to be bitter but don't get upset when you see Republicans take a page from the liberal handbook that dictates party first!

"There is a backdoor draft" First, no there isn't. All military personnel are committed to the inactive reserve for at least two years beyond their active commitment, which essentailly says that they agree to stay in if needed. Nobody is getting the shaft. I know because I made that commitment. Second, Kerry didn't bother to make this distinction as he tried to scare 18-35 year olds into believeing they could be next. Third, how is it that Kerry claims that our military is spread too thin and we will need a draft, then turn around and criticize the President for not committing enough troops to win the peace and promising at least another 40,000 when elected? If the military is spread so thin, where is Kerry going to get these additional 40,000 troops??? Interesting question isn't it?

"And isn't a little hypocritical to use the National Guard to circumvent Vietnam and then kick members of the NG into Iraq?" Not any more than serving in Vietnam, coming home and distancing yourself from the military, telling lies about your fellow servicemen, providing aid and comfort to our enemy and 35 years later, pretending that the four months you spent committing war crimes qualifies you to be commander-in-chief.

"Isn't it relevant that Bush lied too? " Bush didn't lie and the country agrees with me here.

"What I did mind was the deliberate trumping up of claims by counting the number of times something was mentioned in ONE bill which he voted against to make it look like larger numbers" Sorry but the 23 votes are all seperate bills to introduce new taxes during his 20 year Senate career. Check the record. If you count every floor motion and committee votes, that number rises well over 300. Bigger picture here is that Kerry only has a record of voting for higher taxes, NEVER lower taxes.

"It lists a number of issues and shows Kerry saying "No" on all of them, making him look anti-military" Kerry can't hide from his record any more than you can. The man voted against every weapons system now in use on the war on terror. He voted for a missle freeze when Reagan was building them up to defeat the Soviets. He voted against the first Gulf war. His record suggest strong anti-military. Perhaps he developed a bad taste for them while committing all those war crimes?

"My feeling is that where the Democrats made a huge mistake was in not taking a more decisive stand against Bush" Did you watch the election at all? They lost because this is ALL THEY DID.

"They needed a candidate that said to hell with coddling Bush like the reporters do; YOU LIED TO US!!!! Over a thousand soldiers are dead because you lied!!" Again, no lies were told. Next, you had a candidate like that, his name was Howard Dean.

"one could argue that 9/11 was not a terrorist attack; it was a pre-emptive strategic strike on government and economic targets" Only a radical Islamo fascist would argue that or maybe an America hating liberal.

"when you make people sign loyalty oaths at your public appearances, your discourse skills get a little weak." Now, I have to assume that you know that this was ONE isolated incident conducted by overzealous election volunteers, not the Bush campaign. It was a mistake, it was recognized as a mistake and it wouldn't have even been necessary if the liberals would respect our right to peacefully gather.

"later seeing Condy talk about the 'global test' in a completely different context " It was not taken out of context. It was talked about in the contect under which Kerry would use it, which is exactly the same context that Kerry spoke of it.

I said "With his "global Test" comment, Kerry made it clear that he would not act in a way that was condemnable by the world." Your reply was " in years past, this would have been considered a good quality" What you conveniently left out was my "context", which was by doing what is right for the US. Kerry will not act in a way that is condemnable by the world EVEN IF IT IS RIGHT FOR THE US. This is NEVER a good qaulity. It undermines our sovereignty.

"you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people, understand fully why you're doing what you're doing, and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons." What if you can't convince the world??? Does this mean you shouldn't be doing it in the first place?? If this is your stance, you are claiming that our interests NEVER conflict with the world. That's a pretty narrow view!

"Since we gunslung in on our own without adequate evidence, we have a war where even the Americans that support it cannot usually give the reason we're there. Many cite an involvement by Saddam's regime in 9/11. Nobody says this. Not Bush, not conservatives, nobody.

"He cut taxes for the richest, and threw some change at the little guy to placate him" This tells me that you have no economic or even mathematical understanding. First an across the board tax cut is obviously going to impact those you pay more taxes more than those who pay less taxes. So by your logic, either we need to reduce the tax burden on middle class by more than they actually pay in taxes or we reduce the break to the wealthy to a point were it makes no difference and doesn't help the economy. Your class baiting doesn't work! An across the board tax cut means everybody gets a break. Those that pay more get more. Those that pay less get less. That is fair despite how unfair you try to make it sound.

"average salaries have gone down" This was true between September 2000 and early 2003. Read the latest salary report available from the labor depatrment. It tells a different story.

"they've stooped to tactics like calling burger-flipping a "manufacturing job". " Uhh, no they didn't. Where is your proof of this? moveon.org?

"Yeah, that minimum wage paycheck will feed a family. " It's rare that anyone would be trying to feed a family has a minimum wage job. Having worked in retail management for several years in the inner city of DC, I know a LOT about the opportunities available. Anyone that shows up for work, is reliable and works hard will not make minimum wage for very long. ANYONE. If someone is making minimum after years and years, I can gaurantee you that there is another problem.

"Gas prices have been at an all time high" How is this possible since we went to war for oil?

"If I could afford an SUV, then I might be able to also afford fueling it." I'm sure you don't need big government to succeed do you? I don't

"Right now, despite having a full time job, I have no health care" Get a new job! Again, you don't need big government to solve your problems. The fact that you think it is their job tells me that you feel that you are entitled to what other people work for!

"right now I'll take a 'socialist' plan above no plan" Do a little homework. Socialized medicine has failed miserably everywhere it has been tried, even Canada!

"I also know that cutting taxes when you are in the midst of an economic recession and the worst deficit in history is a bad idea." That's because you don't know anything about economics. Never in the history of mankind has a nation ever taxed itself into prosperity. The economy is spurred when the private sector is free to invest and profiteer. Tax cuts do just that!

"I don't like cuts to schools and emergency services even more" Uh, since most of this funding comes from a local, regional or state level, I'd say that any cuts that you saw are probably nothing more than a contrived effort to raise any or all of those taxes.

"someone is not "strengthening the economy" when you are deeply in debt with thousands of lost jobs " I laugh at liberals who throw the deficit up! I notice that deficit spending didn't bother you for 35 years prior. It's only since the GOP controlled congress of 94 forced Clinton to have a balanced budget is it an issue. Also jobs are up, up and up. Look back over the past 19 months!

"With Clinton, we had a huge budget surplus" Again, thanks to the GOP controlled Congress and the "Contract with America" in 1994

"We now have a record deficit" Due to a recession that statred while Clinton was still in office.

Ishie, I know you won't be swayed. You are so partisanly blinded, nothing I say is going to make a difference. I just wish your opinions were based on facts and not the leftist propaganda. But I'll always remember what Winston Churchill said. "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain."

Robert

Dear Levi,

“In my life (41 years), I have never heard a "Right Winger" talk about hating blacks, muslims, or any other group.”

As I have mentioned in my previous posts to this site, PLEASE read the posts carefully before responding. You will notice that I was referring to EXTREMISTS on the right, whom I point out are NOT in the majority amongst right-wingers. I have the misfortune of now living in a southern state where racism against blacks, Jews, and Muslims is expressed frequently. The KKK is but one example. All of these extremists hate groups are ULTRA right wing, and most of them trump up some biblical justification for their abhorrent actions. I have many differences with most right wing advocates, but I have never accused them of being hate groups with the exception of the extremists. In my opinion, also stated in a previous post, extremists of ANY leaning are wrong and often dangerous.

“I have heard much hate spewed about anyone who does not walk in lock step with the democratic view point.”

This is very surprising to me! I have found that exactly the opposite is true. If you will scroll up and read many of the earlier posts on this site, you will find profanity laden vituperative directed against the good people of Coastopia because we do not support the current administration. Fortunately, Ian, the site’s moderator no longer allows these hate posts.

“I am finishing my Masters this semester, and any student with a view other than the left leaning view knows to stay silent.”

I don’t know where you attend school, but I find this to be sad. Perhaps you are simply dealing with a group of sophomoric students who are angry at the election results, and while many Democrats and non-Bush Republicans are angry, that is no excuse for disrespect toward anyone who behaves in a reasonable and tolerant manner. I refer you to one of my posts yesterday, which includes the definition of liberal.

“I would like to vote democratic for some issues but with the hate the extreme left has toward anyone of a Christian Faith I can not do this.”

Again, as I have stated in previous posts, I am a Christian myself. I simply have a firm belief in the separation of church and state. When religion is incorporated into our government and public institutions, many citizens are disenfranchised by default. This is NOT what the American Republic is based upon. I believe you will find that, in the vast majority of cases, Democrats oppose Christianity ONLY when people or governments attempt to force it upon others.

“Until Democrats start truly practicing "tolerance" we will always be a minority party."

I can only refer you to public radio and Fox’s Bill O’Reilly. I have seldom heard the few Democratic talk show moderators extant resort to such snappy retorts as “Shut up, ya pinko commie” when their views are challenged. You will find that such retorts are commonplace amongst conservative moderators, most of whom are ultra conservative.

Thank you for your input! Things were getting a bit dull around here.
Dan

I would advise all future coastopians to read Animal Farm By George Orwell.
This would be the crystal ball of coastopias future.
Communism is socialism, because with a socialist form of economy all citizens (comrades) are dependent on the government. When a people are dependent on a government to give them all their needs, then they are slaves to that government and are no longer a free people. I love freedom not government care.
I can promise you that you would be the "little people" and that Michael Moore would still live in a mansion while coastopians lived in huts. You should have seen the poverty of East Berlin compared to the beauty of West Berlin before the wall came down. People were not trying to escape from West Berlin but they were jumping out of buildings and being shot trying to escape form East Berlin.

"In my life (41 years), I have never heard a "Right Winger" talk about hating blacks, muslims, or any other group."

Where do you live? I'm only 23 (24 tomorrow). I lived for five years in the South. I have heard more antipathy towards blacks and particularly Muslims than I ever cared to hear. When I first moved to Wilmington, NC (later to Charlotte), which was not THAT long ago, one of the first things I heard was a baby right winger spewing what her parents told her about interracial relationships. What's funny is some of the crap I heard in NC about interracial relationships is the same stuff I've heard aboug gay marriage, though the interracial naysayers tend to bring kids into it more.

I met a few open racists when it came to black people. I actually have met a couple in CA too. Most of the people who were racist though didn't think they were racist. They had differing degrees of mistrust or 'misplaced helpfulness', but they'd spew some stuff out of these sentiments you wouldn't believe.

With Muslims, I've found a far more open hatred, particularly in the South, though fortunately I was not there immediately post 9/11. I've heard them commonly referred to by the 'raghead'/'towelhead' racial slurs. I've heard the "Well, I know a guy from Iran and he's a Christian and tolerant! I don't see why the other people have to dress differently and act weird." I've also heard people who see a Sikh in a turban and go "Frigging terrorists". They can't even get their stereotypes correct! After 9/11, there was a surge of anti-Muslimism, even showing up in CA. The Sikhs in the Sacramento community had an identity parade to try and make people aware of the fact they aren't Muslim, nor are they even from the Middle East. I know MEXICANS who had terrorism stuff yelled at them after 9/11. How is that for ignorance?

I've also heard stuff from right wingers on Latinos. NC again. Some stuff about illegal aliens (In NC?) and gardener and 'stupid' jokes.

If you haven't heard this stuff, you're lucky. I have met many right wingers, and a number of them start off like nice people until they are confronted with whatever topic strikes a nerve, be it evolution or Muslims.

That's not "Anti-Christian". If anything, their actions are anti-Christian. I have met many Christians, across the political spectrum and with differing degrees of fundamental adherance (anywhere from VERY loosely based on the Bible to the Bible is 100% factual). Most seemed like perfectly nice, well-adjusted people. The right wingers seem to hijack the faith, assign it to their political philosophies, and paint those who disagree with them as being against God. It's a smart political strategy, and clearly works, but it is inherantly deceptive.

"I have heard much hate spewed about anyone who does not walk in lock step with the democratic view point."

Really? Again, I live in the People's Republic of California and went to the People's Republic of Davis. I have a handgun with hollow points and believe people who have classes and training should have greater access to conceal carry permits. While I eat a fairly healthy diet, they will also have to pry the meat out of my cold dead hands. I am not against hunting certain species, though I wouldn't do it. I'm very much a capitalist. I am for massive welfare reform because I see many people abusing the system (my boyfriend's ex, for instance). I was for invading Afghanistan because the government was harboring the people directly responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I am for the death penalty (though for major reforms in it). I'm for stricter crime sentences.

While my views may come closer to Democratic than Republican, I am not a Democrat. In an election, it basically comes down to what my priorities are. The Democrats often win that internal battle because I'd rather throw money away on some of the stupid proposals they make rather than lose civil liberties. I also can't think of a time I've had a left winger get on my case for not staying in step with the party. Even on the topic of guns, which is a hot issue, I've had many calm, respectful debates with anti-gun people without screaming, antipathy or anything else. I also didn't get the feeling from these people that upon hearing a few political beliefs, they were going to think I was a bad person or hate me. I have gotten that impression from right wingers. Hell, I've had good conversations with left wingers I disagreed with WHILE they were protesting, literally holding the sign in one hand while talking to me. Still, no nastiness or disrespect.

To be fair, this approach HAS worked with some right wingers, but not as many. Upon trying to initiate a civilized discourse in the same manner as I have with left wingers I've disagreed with, I have been screamed at or ignored.

When we were beginning to get into this Iraq mess, I was against it from the start. The right wingers, and even some in the middle berated me for being anti-war. They stated that pacifism would get us killed, that I was a tree hugger, that other people were going to have to pull me and my libbie buddies out of the fire, and I should go back to eating granola and singing kumbaya and shut the hell up. I was told I was with the terrorists more than the victims of the WTC and said maybe if I'd been there, I'd know.

They never seemed to HEAR me when I told them I was not a pacifist, that I was for the war in Afghanistan, but I didn't think Iraq was involved in 9/11, had WMDs, or posed a threat to us and that we were losing the world sympathy and support. They told me to go back to France.

So you could say my experiences have been a little different than yours.

"I am finishing my Masters this semester, and any student with a view other than the left leaning view knows to stay silent."

Maybe the students not toeing the party line should try speaking once in a while. They might be surprised.

"I would like to vote democratic for some issues but with the hate the extreme left has toward anyone of a Christian Faith I can not do this."

It is hard to take your point of view seriously, I am afraid, with statements like this, unless you are designating "extreme left" with as being the liberal equivalents to Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps. When I say 'right wingers', I am not referring to the people polarized so far to one side of the political scale as to likely be certifiably insane. I refer to a much larger group of people very influential in elections and allied close with the party. Instead of doing the equivalent, I have noticed a tendency on the part of the 'other side', if you will, to equate us all with Michael Moore.

The fact is, 80-90% of this country is Christian. More Republicans are Christians than Democrats, percentage-wise, in recent years, but not all Republicans are Christians. When you consider the political breakdown of the country, logic should inform you that at least a significant majority of the Democrats must be Christians, even to a farther left swing. As such, it being a party that is "Anti-Christian" seems rather ill informed. There are a number of Christians, in fact, who take a more socialistic view of the Bible, thus moving them more to the district of 'far left' as far as political philosophy is concerned. Biblically, they make a pretty good case for it. George Bush was not running against John Kerry, Satanist; he was running against John Kerry, liberal Catholic. All the Democrats in position to hold high office, with the exception of Joseph Lieberman, whose values actually are closely aligned with many expressed by the Right, are Christians. Most of the people campaigning for them are Christians. Most of the people voting for them are Christians.

It also occurs to me that if you feel an issue is independently right (like a proposition), you should vote on what you feel is right. Are you really so suggestable that extremists cause you to not vote or vote against something you think is right? Because if that's the case, newsflash, both sides are ALWAYS going to have atrocious people supporting them.

I am currently scared to death of the Republicans. Not all of them, but with the gaining of power with the new direction the party has taken since the Bush administration. I feared his last attorney general, and I fear a new one who thinks the Geneva Convention is 'outdated'. I voted in the recent election. There were a number of propositions that I researched prior to the election. On some issues (stem cell research), I went to the democratic leaning, though our Republican governor also supported that proposition. On other issues, things suggested and supported by Republicans (some of the taxes and restrictions on casino gambling) seemed like good ideas so I voted in favor of those.

If a few jerks keep you from voting the way you want to vote, congratulations. You are aiding the polarization of the country into extreme factions where breaking party lines is akin to heresy.

"Until Democrats start truly practicing "tolerance" we will always be a minority party."

Like I said, it is interesting in your 41 years that you have had experiences that are the polar opposite of mine. Besides, I don't like people who screw with the Constitution, on either side. The Repubs really lost me when they got special permission for illegal search and seizure, started holding people, including American citizens, indefinitely without arrest or access to legal representation, and essentially told the UN to kiss their asses, then proceededing to send our troops off to misery and death while inflicting misery and death on others. None of that really has anything to do with religion. Abortion and gay marriage just iced the cake. It also disturbed me that so many people would use the last two reasons to justify why the first ones are acceptable.

Ishie

Robert, Your responses leave me breathless (or perhaps "speechless" is a better term) -- I almost don't know where to start. What do you mean, Bush has nothing to do with reports coming from the Labor Dept.? If he even READ the damned reports, he'd maybe know that the figures were written to include # of military call-ups (oh, that's right -- he hates to read. Well then, someone on his staff should have told him.) And by the way, people are being called back 13 YEARS after their committments have been satisfied. We have had at least 2 physicians called back who were in their 60's and ON SOCIAL SECURITY!! (or don't you read the papers, either?) So what do you call that, if not a back-door draft?

And what is all this "traitor" crap about Kerry?? Were YOU in Viet Nam?? I have many heroic friends who were -- and NONE of them think Kerry was a traitor; in fact, by coming back and telling it like it was, it may have helped get us out a lot sooner, and may have helped save countless lives. No, Kerry wasn't the traitor -- the ones who "betrayed" American trust were those people, like LBJ's wife, who owned a large stake in a helicopter manufacturer in Texas! There may have been a "compelling" economic interest for them staying there (smacks a little like the Halliburton giveaway, doesn't it?)

Stop trying to justify your position with such lame responses. You are not very informed, you dig your heels in and are totally dismissive of the facts (go research them carefully before coming back.) Your motto could be, "I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with the facts!"

Dan,

I think it's pretty amazing that when I post facts and make an argument, I am accused of "digging in my heels". You accuse me of not being very well informed simply because I disagree with you. You accuse me of being dismissive of the facts when I question your propaganda. You characterize my responses as lame despite the fact that you complimented them in your last post, in yet another personal attack. And the best one yet was that somehow, I will not be bothered to consider alternate viewpoint as if I have an exclusive on being a singularly minded politico.

Hey Dan, just like Kerry all you have is personal attacks against anyone with an opposing point of view as you dismiss us as intolerant and stubborn. I made my points without resorting to this, apparently, you cannot.

I have nothing but compassion for your ignorance. I wish you the best!

Robert

Uh, Robert --- I think you got the wrong "guy".

Well, I suppose that makes me wrong again!

Message receive nonetheless I am sure.

Dan...My apologies sir.

Erika, well you know where I stand!

Robert

I have heard something that has disturbed me. Why is it that now Democrats are belittling welfare?? I mean, hello?? Isn't charity and welfare part of being a democrat?? I read a post here that claimed to want to seceede and said "Whoever is president, it doesn't have to change who we are or how we act. It is frustrating, but we can go to Coastopia in our minds every time we give our time or money to charity or argue with a homophobe."

Well the states listed here as blue states are the states that give the least to charity. Why is that??? The Catalogue of Philanthropy released the following this week: 1. Mississippi. 49. $4,070

2. Arkansas. 46. $4,157

3. South Dakota. 44. $4,394

4. Louisiana. 42. $3,637

5. Tennessee. 34. $4,572

6. Alabama. 39. $3,733

7. Oklahoma. 43. $3,451

8. Utah. 27. $5,314

9. North Dakota. 47. $3,079

10. South Carolina. 37. $3,469

11. Wyoming. 24. $6,868

12. West Virginia. 48. $3,021

13. Nebraska. 32. $3,578

14. Idaho. 41. $3,120

15. Texas. 21. $4,447

16. North Carolina. 28. $3,331

17. Missouri. 29. $3,137

18. Kansas. 25. $3,356

19. Florida. 16. $3,798

20. New Mexico. 45. $2,710

21. Georgia. 17. $3,547

22. Montana. 50. $2,374

23. Kentucky. 38. $2,742

24. Iowa. 36. $2,749

25. Alaska. 31. $2,915

26. Indiana. 23. $3,106

27. Nevada. 11. $3,281

28. New York. 5. $3,485

29. Maine. 40. $2,091

30. Vermont. 35. $2,413

31. Ohio. 30. $2,585

32. California. 9. $3,112

33. Washington. 7. $3,128

34. Hawaii. 33. $2,285

35. Oregon. 26. $2,649

36. Arizona. 20. $2,752

37. Pennsylvania. 19. $2,763

38. Delaware. 14. $2,924

39. Michigan. 15. $2,879

40. Virginia. 12. $2,947

41. Illinois. 8. $3,047

42. Colorado. 13. $2,851

43. Wisconsin. 22. $2,512

44. Maryland. 6. $2,958

45. Connecticut. 1. $2,961

46. Rhode Island. 18. $2,059

47. Minnesota. 2. $2,742

48. New Jersey. 3. $2,668

49. New Hampshire. 10. $2,253

50. Massachusetts. 4. $2,645

Makes me wonder about you so called democrats out there....

"Kerry routinely stumped about privitization [sic]of SS when he knew it wasn't true."
Oh, really, Robert???

Just because you don't know what's going on on the Hill doesn't mean it's not going on. What might seem like news now has been brewing for a while (research Bush's 2000 campaign).

"He stumped about a draft that he knew wasn't true."
Let's wait and see on how many fronts Bush tries to fight this war with its current overextended armed forces and see about that one.

"He stumped about lies the President supposedly told even though he had made the exact same assertions. "
I can only assume you mean the weapons of mass destruction. Yes, let's blame Kerry for taking the Bush Administration at its word about the sources of the WMD being reliable. Bush wanted to get Saddam (maybe to avenge his dad, maybe not). We all (Kerry) felt the world would be better off without him. That's no excuse to doctor reports, lie to people and become vigilantes.

Details of your posts aside, you just don't get it. Stop dumping all over our dream of a nation without bigotry.

Hi Robert,
I’m glad that you are back! Active discourse is healthy for this group.

“Bush has parted with the party platform and stated that he would support civil or domestic union. This would grant the same rights and assuage the fears of the Christian right.”

Yes, this is good news. We’ll all just have to see whether or not it is acted upon. The marriage issue is something that should be left up to individual states, and I expect that we will see gradual change over the next 10 years in state legislation. I will have to say, however, that as a Christian who has read the bible cover to cover, the Christian right-wing opposition to gays in general is based more in homophobia than in biblical prohibitions. Homosexuality is actually given scant reference in the bible. Christians should remember that, when the bible was written, homosexuality was a fairly common practice in the Middle East.

“Another fair question. I think Bush needs to take one on the chin here, but he did have some pretty pressing issues to deal with. We can criticize the President for not doing enough in his first term or we can recognize that it's a complex crisis, that was building well before Bush and requires a unified effort to solve. Also, fighting a war on terror in the wake of the worst terrorist attack ever on the heels of a recession is pretty taxing for any President.”

OK, we agree, except that the terrorism crisis could have been more easily resolved had we not gotten ourselves embroiled in the Iraq mess. This would have left the President more time to deal with important domestic issues.

“And you saw something in Kerry to justify faith in him?”

As both Ishie and I have stated, Kerry was NOT our candidate of choice but simply the lesser of two evils. As to faith in Kerry, I have at least seen him admit to mistakes. This is something that Bush has refused to do. There has never been a President in our history that did not make some mistakes. The majority of them at least took some responsibility.

“The recession was first identified in March of 2001, three months into Bush's term. On the face of it, it seems it might be a Bush recession even though all economic indicators starting falling the last six months of Clinton's Presidency…”

The recession was principally due to the catastrophic fall of the dot com industries, and certainly cannot be used as a defense against the largest deficit in our nation’s history. America’s economic health relies on far more factors than simply the stock market.

“ No, I am only comparing the tactics for change. If liberals want to get all broken nosed about conservatively influenced school boards, they are hypocritical. They deployed the exact tactics to move their agenda.”

I have no argument about tactics. Most political tactics are despicable. The agenda is another matter altogether. Independent thinking and a broad-spectrum education for ALL students of ANY religious or non-religious belief is far more in line with America’s constitutional values than is the enforced integration of Christian values in our public institutions.

“Dan, open your eyes, the comparison is right before your eyes. Tina swallowed the moveon.org propaganda that compared Bush to Hitler.”

If that was, indeed, Tina’s viewpoint than I stand corrected, but I don’t agree with the comparison. As bad as I believe Bush to be, I could hardly equate him to Hitler. At least, not yet :-)

“ My point was that in order for them to "screw up" would invariably mean that the country is run poorly and our problems are exacerbated. Why would anyone want that?”

No one wants that, but based on this administration’s record, there is little reason not to expect it.

“Wanting to preserve things the way they are isn't forcing anyone's beliefs on others.”

Here, I take LOTS of exceptions! Preserving things the way they are means NOT trying to change the constitution as was attempted under this administration.

” Quite the opposite is true. It is gays that are forcing their beliefs on the rest of us.”
When is the last time a Democrat or ANYONE for that matter tried to force you to become gay?????

“Just because their beliefs are agnostic versus religious doesn't make their efforts justifiable.”
Interesting, I have met many religious gays. Some are even church leaders! Being gay apparently automatically means that they are non-Christians simply because they do not fit the homophobic mold cast by right wing Christian fundamentalists. I can only assume that you people are truly afraid of being forced into homosexuality :-).

“You can suggest anything you want and you to can criticize me on a personal level if it helps you feel better about your positions.”

Believe me, Robert; I have no need to criticize you on a personal level. I’m very comfortable with my position, thank you. A position, I might add, that is forged in scrupulously examining the issues from all points of view with the exception of those of extremists on either side.

I will let Ishie speak for herself on those issues addressed to her with two exceptions. Your use of the word “liberal” is in the right wing demonized definition. I still do not forgive Democrats for allowing that demonization to go unchallenged. Please see my copy from Mrs. G in one of yesterday’s posts for the actual definition of the word. If we do nothing else, we will, by God, not stand idly by and watch the corruption of word definitions to happen for purely political purposes!

My other issue in your response to Ishie is in regards to “flipping burgers as manufacturing jobs”. I ask you to review the history of industries included in the US National Product Index over the past years. You will find that service industries are nearly in the majority today because America has very few “products” left.
Dan

Sorry. The web page below (news article detailing Bush's revival of his plans to privatize social security) got omitted from my post.
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206~24533~2526717,00.html

Robert,
Apology accepted :-). Sometimes this site gets so busy, it's easy to get confused. Don't get me wrong, however, I still disagree strongly with your arguments. I simply haven't the time, or the typing skills :-), to answer for other Coastopians.
Dan

Mike,
I say ONCE AGAIN, how did this Socialist discussion get started? Who proposed Socialism as the economic system for Coastopia?

As to the differences between Communism and Socialism, I AGAIN refer you to Lenin, Marx, and Trotsky. They proposed the foundations for both the political system (Communism) and the economic system (Socialism). Works of fiction don't quite provide a foundation for intellegent discourse. The mainstream Republican party does NOT consider any of the Socialistic nations in Western Europe to be Communist. For that matter, our good neighbor to the north is considered to be semi-socialistic, but I have never heard Canadians referred to as Communists.

In any case, I don't see that this Socialist debate belongs on this site. Perhaps you are simply listening to the far right wing's definition of the word "liberal" equating it to Socialism. I am not going to, yet AGAIN, include the dictionary definition of liberal.
Dan

tigger1974,

Did I miss another post? Perhaps my ISP is censoring this site :-). You may be referring to Ishie's post wherein she stated that certain welfare REFORMS should be made. That is pretty much of a bi-partisan issue.

As to "going to Coastopia in our minds whenever we donate to charity", there is FAR more at stake here than just welfare issues. To the best of my knowledge, welfare has not killed well over a thousand of our soldiers in Iraq! I could go on almost indefinately listing other very important issues to which we are fundamentally opposed with this administration, but most have been covered from both sides in previous posts by many.
Dan

Fellow Coastonians,

On a very sad note, 22 soldiers have been killed and 170 wounded so far in Falluja according to a Reuter's bulletin.
Dan

"Active discourse is healthy for this group." Some people don't think so, but I agree

"as a Christian who has read the bible cover to cover, the Christian right-wing opposition to gays in general is based more in homophobia than in biblical prohibitions." Dan, I'm not sure how you qualify this statement. Does anyone who feels that homosexuality is immoral qualify as homophobic? I'm glad that you consider yourself a Christian and have read the bible. That makes your reference qualified and but also in the minority. Most Christians that study the bible come to other conclusions about the subject. Regardless, the meaning of the bible has certainly be contested hotly for many centuries and our personal interpretation means little when it comes to secular worship. Meaning it's not our place to tell Catholics that they have it all wrong. This is their faith and just because you read the bible and concluded differently doesn't invalidate their faith or religion. Now government is a different story I am sure you agree. Last, I am sure you are aware that muslims also condemn homosexuality vehemently. Good thing Arafat was in the closet about it!

" the terrorism crisis could have been more easily resolved had we not gotten ourselves embroiled in the Iraq mess" As you know, many people see to think they are closely related. We could go on about the "evidence" but I am sure we disagree. Also, it's rather easy to be monday morning President by determining that had we not gone into Iraq, he would have more time for domestic issues. It's not a fair criticism because going into Iraq should be judges on it's own merits. Agree or disagree, the decision should not have been referenced around the health care crisis.

"The majority of them at least took some responsibility." I hear you on this and it's a valid point but let's agree that it's a live or die "gotcha" world we live in especially presidential politics. I don't know what liberals are looking for other than a tacit apology and acknowledgment by Bush that going into Iraq was wrong. The problem with this is that he doesn't believe that. I'm sure there is dozen, maybe hundred of mistakes that the President could make on himself, but why should he give the opposition more fodder when they seem to have enough already? I know Kerry wasn't your man but he dodged questions just like this especially if they pertained to how he felt about his post-Vietnam activities.

"The recession was principally due to the catastrophic fall of the dot com industries" Which happened while Clinton was president. You didn't even acknowledge my point about Bush's first economic plan being 6 months into the recession. Blame the recession on whatever you want or makes sense to you, but I don't know how any thinking person could blame it on Bush.

"Independent thinking and a broad-spectrum education for ALL students of ANY religious or non-religious belief is far more in line with America’s constitutional values than is the enforced integration of Christian values in our public institutions." Dan, I agree with you but we are talking about much more than "enforced integration of Christain values" Liberals have taken the so called seperation of church and state and bastardized it to mean that we can't do anything that offends anyone. I say hogwash to that. The notion of seperation was only meant to prevent government from mandating a religion and allowing people to practice the religion of their choice. Stone monuments to the ten commandments or the words "under god" in the pledge of allegiance hardly violate this and it hardly deter, detracts or impairs a secular education for all children regardless of faith.

"No one wants that, but based on this administration’s record, there is little reason not to expect it." Erika actually "hopes" for it to happen. Sad.

"Preserving things the way they are means NOT trying to change the constitution as was attempted under this administration." First, it's important to understand what was attempted. As it is now, federal law mandates that states more or less recognize marriages from other states. This means that if a liberal judge in Vermont decided that gay marriage is ok, it could determine the status of gay marriage in the entire US. The Amendment was attempted only because Bush wants it to remain a state matter. Last, the overiding them here is to keep things the way they are, which is without gay marriage. So I'm not sure how your logic works to say that this was an effort to change anything. It wasn't, it was an attempt to keep things the same. I don't agree with the Amendment in case you're wondering, but I do think we need to find a way to ensure that it is always a state issue.

"When is the last time a Democrat or ANYONE for that matter tried to force you to become gay?????" If I say that gays are forcing their beliefs on us, it's not meant to imply that they are trying to make me gay. It's meant to suggest that they want to force me to recognize their union as a "marriage" when I don't want to.

"Being gay apparently automatically means that they are non-Christians simply because they do not fit the homophobic mold cast by right wing Christian fundamentalists. I can only assume that you people are truly afraid of being forced into homosexuality" I didn't mean to suggest that gays can't be religious. I know gay people who are more religious than me!

"Your use of the word “liberal” is in the right wing demonized definition" Not at all. I don't use the word as a pejorative and I can never figure out why it is taken as such. It's simply a way to characterize left leaning people. I mean no disrespect in the use of this word. I am conservative and proud of it and I think liberals should feel equal pride in their beliefs. If some folks want to demonize the word, I am not with them.

Robert

"They are called moveon.org, which is sponsored by George Soros, which has the same proximity to Kerry that the Swift Boat Vets had to Bush."

Just went to moveon.org for the first time. Despite what you may believe, I do not get my information from right wing/left wing sources, though I will surf news channels to watch the spin wars. What I get on the demeanor and attitude of the candidates along with the policies they are publically supporting comes from watching them speak directly. Though often uninteresting, I find this is best done by watching the WHOLE SPEECH, not the selected soundbytes they put on the news.

Moveon inconveniently doesn't seem to have a developed search section, so I searched elsewhere. I found two ads in which Bush is compared to Hitler, contributed to the bushin30seconds.com website, sponsored by moveon.org. This website has people send in their ads and has prizes for different categories. The two Hitler ads were submitted to that site, and were pulled from the site.

"Kerry didn't have an ad that didn't lie about Bush. Lies are hate!"

I didn't see a whole lot of lies. On both sides, I heard some numbers that upon immediate fact checking turned out to be inaccurate. If this had only come out of the Kerry speeches, I'd say yes, he was lying; however Bush was making claims not quite true as well. Since their numbers were up for IMMEDIATE check and revealed by the news organizations, it would be stupid to deliberately lie knowing you're going to be outed thirty seconds from making the statement.

"Bush often spoke about his accomplishments, his plans and his vision without mentioning his opponent."

I saw Kerry speak without addressing Bush, though less frequently, yes, that is true. If you'll recall my posts rather than trying to argue against what you think my position is based on your perception of liberals, you may notice I am not a huge Kerry supporter. I think the man is basically weak, dull, and ineffective. I suspect that a presidency under him would have been mediocre and would have gotten little done. I still think this would have been preferable to where Bush is taking the country.

"Kerry never opened his mouth without a lie to say about Bush. All the man had was hate, lies and more hate."

No, all Al Sharpton had was hate, lies, and more hate. Kerry slung his share of mud but he by no means drove a campaign BASED on hate. If he had, he might have been more successful. A lot of us REALLY dislike this administration.

"Not true at all. Bush's strongest detractors were flaming liberals like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, Terry McAauliff and hollywood types like Barbara Streishand, Chevy Chase and Bruce Springstein."

Ahh, apparently strongest detractors to YOU are the ones who say the most outrageously liberal things. In which case, the strongest detractors I've seen have been standing on the corner of 16th and J St waving "Bush is a Nazi!" "No War for Oil!" signs.

What I MEANT was to me, the strongest detractors are the ones who make the strongest cases. The ability of a person to be noisy says nothing to me. Richard Clarke was a big one. After he came out, from the vitriol coming out of the Bush camp directed at him, you'd think he brought down the Twin Towers. They speculated he was coming out because of sour grapes due to the stripping of his Cabinet-level position when Bush came into office, though he maintained staff level. They did not explain why he waited two years, and why he would stoop to these tactics after thirty years of political service.

"And your example is what? I know the democrats that threw Kerry a picnic in the summer at Sorgels Farm in Western Pennsylvania."

I've heard all the "Kerry is a creep" stories. There's enough of them that there's probably some truth to it.

When I say "nice", what I mean is that in public appearence, the Republicans tend to treat people who break from party lines as hideous blasphemers. They are absolutely vicious in the primaries (more so than I saw out of the Democrats), making statements about their opponents that are absolutely outrageous. When they later buddy up with those opponents (like Bush and McCain), it says a lot about the diplomatic skills of the people opposing them, not to tell them where to go.

In this administration, when Republicans have dared speak against them, they get a hailstorm of abuse rained down on them. Before you get the "The Democrats do it too, so that makes it all right!!!!" hissy going, let me first say I don't doubt they do. I think it's a despicable tactic that causes complete polarization of the parties. I also have seen a more totalitarian technique in this manner by the Bush administration. Before you make the same accusations of liberal sources, blah blah blah, I got this long ago when I watched the address of Congress over the Patriot Act. For the Patriot Act or for the terrorists!! Gee, that's not bullying. My view of the administration as lying, arrogant bullies comes DIRECTLY from watching their unaltered speeches, debates, and conferences. The only slight improvement is when Ari Fleischer left.

"Why? Because he refused to allow liberals to create a rift and divide the party?"

It must be really scary in your world, with the armies of liberals with torches and pitchforks surrounding the fortress. It's a shame because McCain is someone I actually do respect, and I think he would have proved a far better leader than Bush.

"McCain certainly had a reason to be bitter but don't get upset when you see Republicans take a page from the liberal handbook that dictates party first!"

Yawn. Again with the assumption that due to my being a liberal, I agree with the tactics and policies of the Democrats. Just because you toe the party line doesn't mean I have to. McCain certainly has a reason to be bitter. He also was painted as a traitor and less than a hero for fighting in the war the administration couldn't be bothered to attend. I think it should be people first, not party first. Clearly you disagree.

"First, no there isn't. All military personnel are committed to the inactive reserve for at least two years beyond their active commitment, which essentailly says that they agree to stay in if needed."

From CBS (I know, they're biased too, but I've heard this one from other sources since the man in question is from my home town)

'The Sacramento-based soldier is an eight-year veteran with combat experience who is married with two children. Court papers said the soldier's family faces financial hardship because of his extended absence from his civilian job.

He signed up under a National Guard program for veterans that offers military education and family medical benefits for a one-year trial. Before that term expired, he was called up for an 18-month tour that will extend his enlistment by nearly a year.'

In another case, a captain was told to go to Iraq despite having resigned. He was able to gain his discharge AFTER a legal fight.

Sounds kind of sketchy to me.

"Second, Kerry didn't bother to make this distinction as he tried to scare 18-35 year olds into believeing they could be next."

We just re-elected a president in the midst of a pre-emptive war on a country falsely believed to be a threat to us. This has led to an increased recruitment drive for terrorism and condemnation by the world. To fight the 'war on terror', there are a number of countries we may end up tangled with, including Syria and Iran. North Korea hasn't seemed to be a major concern by the administration, though I'm hoping they aren't suicidal enough to send troops there too. 18-35 year olds *should* be worried. I don't think Bush is going to institute a draft for Iraq. I think he may for wherever we invade next.

"Third, how is it that Kerry claims that our military is spread too thin and we will need a draft, then turn around and criticize the President for not committing enough troops to win the peace and promising at least another 40,000 when elected? If the military is spread so thin, where is Kerry going to get these additional 40,000 troops??? Interesting question isn't it?"

No idea where he was planning on getting them. The charge that the troops are spread too thin seems accurate though. We have lost sight of our original target (I was saying that before Kerry was, thank you, I was just glad to hear him say it), and the situation in Iraq is going very badly. We're having to send in our own national guard, which includes a number of people with insufficient training to fight the sort of battle we have going on in Iraq. I'm also not sure how this is protecting the homefront? If we are attacked again, the people that are supposed to defend us are largely tied up in the Iraq mess. That doesn't make me feel safer.

"Not any more than serving in Vietnam, coming home and distancing yourself from the military, telling lies about your fellow servicemen, providing aid and comfort to our enemy and 35 years later, pretending that the four months you spent committing war crimes qualifies you to be commander-in-chief."

Wow, we have been watching the Swift Boat ads!! I also want some clarity on something. If Kerry was committing "war crimes", then what lies was he telling about his fellows? If neither were, but he felt like he was, isn't that sad? American soldiers, the vast majority of which were not committing war crimes, still had to commit acts that felt like them. If a pregnant woman or a child is trying to kill you or your platoon, you have to kill them. You just do. It doesn't mean you're ever going to be able to look at yourself the same way again. Plenty of Vietnam vets, including the ones on KERRY'S boat, support him. Plenty of those who fought in Vietnam, upon arriving home, protested the war. That does not make the actions of people appropriate, even in the face of My Lai (which we seem to have forgotten? We act like any criticism of American actions in Vietnam is based on lies).

I do think Kerry hailed Vietnam too much, NOT because I don't think he's a war hero (and there are many, including McCain), but because he was railing on issues of years gone rather than ones affected today. What I have seen is the same deplorable effort out of the Bush camp to paint him as a traitor that I saw when they launched the same tactics at McCain. That in itself makes me suspicious of their claims.

"Bush didn't lie and the country agrees with me here."

He didn't? When was it we supposedly "won" the war? When was the date by which our troops would be out of Iraq? What was our reason for going into Iraq?

For our reasons going in, I have to conclude Bush lied because his partisan tactics have convinced me he's a lot smarter than I gave him credit for in 2000. With the intelligence failures BOTH pre 9/11, and more notably (since hindsight is 20/20), pre-Iraq, Bush was either lying to make his case, or he was completely incompetent. I'd like to believe he was lying because the alternative is even scarier.

"If you count every floor motion and committee votes, that number rises well over 300."

So Kerry has SEPARATELY voted for issues that only concerned a rise in taxes, not separate policies that included a rise in taxes, well over three hundred times? Remarkable.

"The man voted against every weapons system now in use on the war on terror."

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/weapons.asp
This is a pretty reliable urban legends site, and has a good habit of fully developing the facts surrounding the issues. They address this one at length with references to the specific senate resolutions, including Kerry's vote to kill the AH-64 Apache helicopter program six months AFTER Dick Cheney had advocated the same thing.

"Perhaps he developed a bad taste for them while committing all those war crimes?"

Ohhh, I get it!!! He stated he committed war crimes while in the midst of a horrible, unpopular, confusing war, and maybe his Senate record reflects how horrible it was! Wow, that's a funny one! Definitely have to include that in the Christmas card. Tell the other good one about the new Iraqi prisoner dog breed because they do well on leashes. That'll have the laughs rolling!

Yes, I am too young to have been in Vietnam, but I have talked to a lot of people who were in it and saw horrors I cannot contemplate. I also understand the fierce division of philosophies during the war. Many who went to war saw the horror and did not want to support it. Many who went to war saw the horror and felt by not supporting it, there was no justification for the horror. With the public's incitement against the war and often against the soldiers in it, particularly with *actual* traitors like Jane Fonda fueling the abuse of American soldiers and the discovery of the My Lai massacres, in some cases criticism of the war and actions in the war became tantamount to treason. I'm sure there are plenty of Vietnam vets who are pissed at Kerry; just as I know many who aren't. Given the political atmosphere at the time, that is understandable.

I do not think it is the role of people supporting partisan interests to criticize a war they didn't participate in. They can't know, just as I can't know, what it was like. For the Swift Boat Veterans, if they were not spreading demonstrated lies (such as that he got his medal for chasing down a dying enemy who was out of ammo and killed him), but expressing their view that he was a traitor for speaking out against the war AND they didn't have close ties to the Bush administration, I wouldn't have a problem with them. It also speaks strongly to me that most if not all of the people who KNEW Kerry in Vietnam support him.

That being said, I do not think that service in Vietnam or lack of it makes one qualified or unqualified to be a president. I do think that chickenhawks shouldn't try ripping apart veterans with lies to try and forward the politics of a candidate. They did this with McCain and Kerry.

"Did you watch the election at all? They lost because this is ALL THEY DID."

I watched the whole election with great interest, though not on Fox News. I watched the debates, I researched the position. I saw a lot of waffling and passive aggressive stuff by the democrats. When they did go on the attack, they were idiotic and immature about it and avoided the real issues. I saw Al Sharpton making trite statements to any of the Bush supporters when people on the Bush side were actually trying to hold a civilized conversation. I've already addressed the "lesbian daughter" stuff. I think the strongest position should have been on the war, but instead we had someone saying "well... I would have gone in, but not that way." Ooh, powerful words. That's one of the reasons I don't think Kerry was the right candidate. It's hard to go fully against Bush when you voted for the stuff he did. I don't deny that at all.

You still fail to recognize that part of my view though. You're far too busy making partisan assumptions about me despite my departure from key liberal issues and my lack of enthusiasm for their candidate of choice. To you, I seem to be young, liberal, and stupid, believing all the lies I hear from soundbytes in liberal news sources and failing to see the real picture which you have deigned to bring to my attention with your impartial view of the election, which seems to be "if the Democrats do it or have done it, it's okay".

Well, save it. Most of my objections come directly from watching the Republicans themselves and saying "What??? Illegal search and seizure? What? Saddam Hussein??? What has he done in the last ten years?? Where's Osama? What? Gays? Who the hell cares about gays! We're at war!"

One of my objections towards the democrats is I didn't here any of this from them until six months ago. There were too busy trying to be inoffensive, chase red herrings, and boycott state senate meetings. They also allowed this idea that dissent is unamerican to flourish by being stumped by it themselves.

Long before the actual election, I watched EVERYTHING going wrong for this administration that seemed could possibly go wrong except another terrorist attack on our soil and I said to many people, and still believe: "With the number of blunders, screw ups, and obvious problems, if the democrats lose this election, they should be disbanded as a party and it should be someone else's turn." Ask my dad. Said it to him too. I NEVER said Kerry would be a good president. I said he'd be a better president. That's not a ringing endorsement. When I saw that he'd taken the primaries, I groaned.

Despite your painting of me as a misguided young buck swayed by party tactics, it's simply not true. I'm not happy with the democrats. I also think that using what the "other guy" does as a basis for what you should do is the way we got into this nasty partisan situation to begin with. If you are unable to see me as anything but a liberal kiddie mouthpiece, that is a problem from your end.

"Next, you had a candidate like that, his name was Howard Dean."

Yup, liked him better than Kerry. Unfortunately, the party wanted to find someone that seemed less abrasive, because after looking at Bush's rampant success throwing diplomacy to the wind and shooting from the hip, the party, as a whole, in the states where the primaries actually matter, decided the best way to combat someone with an abundance of cowboy charisma and a lot of ignorance was to pit him against Frankenstein the accountant. Brilliant.

You may also notice also that the only people proposing Kerry as the president of Coastopia are Republicans.

"Only a radical Islamo fascist would argue that or maybe an America hating liberal."

Hmm... you seem to get offended when people paint your side of the argument as a bunch of inbred, ignorant, warmongering hillbillies, yet you embrace the anti-liberal stereotypes with gusto. I am attempting to address your points with the assumption that you are not a reactionary idiot, so I would appreciate it if you would do the same. I feel the 9/11 attacks were murder and terrorism. I mourn the loss of so many lives. Also, despite the recent trend of not caring who dies if they live in another country, I care about the deaths of Iraqi citizens. I also care about the deaths of American soldiers.

Besides whatever twisted ethical cause the terrorists thought they had for attacking us, there was no reason for them to attack us. It was terrorism, plain and simple.

With Afghanistan, we were not carrying out a pre-emptive attack. We were carrying out an attack to apprehend/kill those who perpetrated the attacks on our soil. One hundred percent with the president up to that point. After 9/11, despite the fact that I didn't trust Bush and voted Gore in 2000 (though didn't feel the animosity that I do now), I actually praised the way in which the administration was handling the situation. They did not go off half-cocked; they did not, at first, start violating civil rights. They identified the perpetrators, pinpointed the main location, told the government to hand them over, the government refused. We went in. Supported it.

Fast forward. We've been doing fairly well in Afghanistan, but are having some trouble. We're really having trouble locating the kingpin, bin Laden, who also led attacks on American embassies. Out of nowhere, Iraq gets dragged into the picture. We list them as a threat to us, try and make our case to the UN. Didn't go over well there. We ignore the wishes of the UN, get some countries to send a few troops in and call this minor contribution (which gets smaller and smaller as more show more wisdom than we did and get the hell out) "The Coalition of the Willing". We rename french fries and french toast, sell bumper stickers that say 'f the UN' and charge into Iraq, determined to get the evil terrorist cells and those pesky weapons of mass destruction. Oh yeah, we did issue them a warning to disarm. They showed the destruction of some weapons, but not the big ones they'd already sold to get more Saddam statue building money because they apparently no longer had them. We gave Saddam 48 hours to leave the country, which is not our right despite him being a Very Bad Man. Then we started "shock and awe", bombing the hell out of them. Now we occupy them, appoint our people, and we're not leaving.

What did Iraq do? NOTHING. What did we do to get the 9/11 attacks? NOTHING. This comparison may horrify you as being anti-American liberalism, but it's pretty real. I think the action itself was anti-American. What the administration does, to me, doesn't represent "America", otherwise the communist witch hunts would be American.

What is also horrible is that by invading Iraq without sufficient cause, we've merely proved Osama bin Laden right to the Muslim world, including the moderates. We do pose a danger to them. We can't even claim we're simply against radical militants. Of all the fundamentalist countries there are in the Middle East, we picked Iraq!! We picked a country with a secular dictator when logic would dictate al qaeda wouldn't associate with him anyway because he'd sell them out in a heartbeat with a fairly moderate population! It makes a good campaign speech for terrorist recruitment "We attacked the Americans where they live because they were gearing up to rain fire on the Muslim world! They have weapons of mass destruction and a delivery system, and they will destroy us! They will invade, convert us to the heretical Christian belief, parade our proud people around on leashes like dogs, and build a McDonalds at the site of our mosques! No one is safe! Even in Iraq they are doing this thing! We must strike at them while we can! Sign up here! Free keychain with enrollment if you've lost a husband, wife, child, or sibling in American bombings and are REALLY pissed off with nothing to lose!"

I am not saying cater to terrorists. The kingpins of terrorism are the ones that hide and direct other people to do the scary stuff. But we also must recognize that we cannot punish "suicide bombers" for obvious reasons, and suicide bombings are largely sparked by desperation and revenge. Direct people who are desperate who have lost loved ones into the hands of evil manipulators like Osama bin Laden and you have a real problem. Creating more desperate people doesn't fix this.

"Now, I have to assume that you know that this was ONE isolated incident conducted by overzealous election volunteers, not the Bush campaign."

Ohhh.... Wow, I didn't know that. From the Boston Globe:

"RIO RANCHO, N.M. -- A Republican National Committee practice of having people sign a form endorsing President Bush or pledging to vote for him in November before being issued tickets for RNC-sponsored rallies is raising concern among voters.

When Vice President Dick Cheney spoke July 31 to a crowd of 2,000 in Rio Rancho, a city of 45,000 near Albuquerque, several people who showed up at the event complained about being asked to sign endorsement forms in order to receive a ticket to hear Cheney.

[Nick]Lucy, who was not asked to sign a form, said he has seen every president since Ronald Reagan, but he was denied access because he is not a registered Republican. He is a Democrat and a past commander of the American Legion in Dubuque who plays taps at veterans' funerals."

"It was a mistake, it was recognized as a mistake"

The Bush administration doesn't make mistakes. Remember?

"and it wouldn't have even been necessary if the liberals would respect our right to peacefully gather."

Oh boo hoo. Also from the Globe, same article:
"The campaign of John F. Kerry, the Democratic nominee, has had to deal with Republican hecklers at events. The Kerry-Edwards communications director for New Mexico, Ruben Pulido, said that when Kerry visited New Mexico on July 10, several Bush supporters shouted ''Viva Bush" and waved flip-flops"

Ah, from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette:

"With a friendly crowd in Canonsburg lobbing softball questions yesterday, Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kerry could have ignored a pocket of hecklers that tried to disrupt his campaign.

"Instead, Kerry pulled the detractors into his Labor Day speech, part of the "front-porch discussions" he's been holding across the country. He told them their shouts and taunts couldn't cover up facts — namely, that America has had a net loss of 1.6 million jobs under President Bush.

Gasoline prices are up 31 percent since Bush took office, and college tuition has grown more expensive by the year, he said.

At the same time, he said, wages are down by $1,500 for "the average family."

One heckler then shouted, "Yeah, Kerry, you're really average."

Kerry pounced on the comment, replying: "No, I'm privileged, and my tax burden went down. I don't think that's right."

So don't give this "poor Republicans having the mean nasty dissenters not respecting their right to peaceful assembly" nonsense.

"What you conveniently left out was my "context", which was by doing what is right for the US."

LOL, you're talking about context?

"Kerry will not act in a way that is condemnable by the world EVEN IF IT IS RIGHT FOR THE US."

Never heard him say that.

"This is NEVER a good qaulity. It undermines our sovereignty."

Strawman. This wasn't his argument.

"...and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons." What if you can't convince the world???

This is interesting. RIGHT under the quote of what he said, you changed the meaning. "Convince" and "Prove" mean entirely different things. The creationists are Proof of that. If we had found WMDs and ties to 9/11, that would PROVE to the world our actions were legitimate. If they were unconvinced, then it becomes their problem.

"you are claiming that our interests NEVER conflict with the world. That's a pretty narrow view!"

Never claimed that. Strawman.

"'Many cite an involvement by Saddam's regime in 9/11.' Nobody says this. Not Bush, not conservatives, nobody."

Bush doesn't. His administration implied it at the beginning, and Cheney held onto an Al Qaeda link even after Bush had abandoned it (before you accuse me of liberal sources AGAIN, I SAW him say it). MANY conservatives believe it. Polls indicate that. It is an ignorant position. It is not one believed by Republicans who have closely followed the situation and have relied on a variety of news sources. It also helped win a lot of votes. I am NOT, by the way, calling conservatives stupid. I am calling a vast percentage of them uninformed. Before you start chirping at me again, a vast percentage of liberals were uninformed too, and like those of the Bush voters that were uninformed, can be easily exposed by their misinformation.

But denying anyone thinks that 9/11 and Al Qaeda were linked to Iraq is false. And the administration did encourage that presumption, particularly Dick Cheney.

"This tells me that you have no economic or even mathematical understanding. First an across the board tax cut is obviously going to impact those you pay more taxes more than those who pay less taxes."

Because ten percent of 20,000 dollars is less money than ten percent of 500,000 dollars! I get it!! I KNEW I should have paid more attention in seventh grade.

The tax rates dropped across the board. The tax rates on the upper 1 percent dropped by 6.8%, the upper 5 percent by 5.2%, significantly higher than the lower classes. The rich were/are paying a larger SHARE, naturally. The share of the tax burden dropped more for the wealthy than it did for the lower classes, though not by as wide a margin. In addition, Bush has provided financial motivations for businesses which violate Clean Air Laws.

"Your class baiting doesn't work!"

Glad to hear it. The rates and shares add up to larger weighted benefits for the wealthy, whether you like it or not.

"An across the board tax cut means everybody gets a break."

I did not deny that people received money back, even though Howard Dean downplayed it and misrepresented the numbers. Like the White House, I even gave them a helpful suggestion for what to do with it. I'm saying the wealthy got a bigger percentage break.

"This was true between September 2000 and early 2003. Read the latest salary report available from the labor depatrment. It tells a different story."

Going up but maintaining a net loss doesn't make things all right, particularly when coupled against the cost of living.

"Uhh, no they didn't. Where is your proof of this? moveon.org?"

Again with the assumptions. I generally assume that parties will trump their own policies without self-criticism, and as such try to avoid partisan spin in favor of actual data. But of course, you won't acknowledge that because that doesn't fit onto your Liberal-stamp voodoo doll.

"It's rare that anyone would be trying to feed a family has a minimum wage job."

Many people trying to feed a family have lost jobs with the downturn in the economy, and have had to seek jobs elsewhere in an employers' market. They take what they can get.

"Having worked in retail management for several years in the inner city of DC, I know a LOT about the opportunities available."

If you live in the inner city of DC, perhaps. If you're trying to make the case that finding a job within a poor city district is easier than finding one out in a small town reliant on a few industries, I would strongly agree with you. Cities have high turnover.

"Anyone that shows up for work, is reliable and works hard will not make minimum wage for very long."

Define long. If your company has just gone under, and you're scraping for a job, though the unemployment is a help, if you have a mortgage to pay, going on minimum wage for a MONTH, which is shorter than it takes most people to get a raise, is enough to drive you into financial ruin.

"ANYONE. If someone is making minimum after years and years, I can gaurantee you that there is another problem."

Wow, someday I need to meet this person you're arguing against, because it isn't me. Big job losses. You follow? Job creations. Big deal made by White House. Still with me? New jobs don't pay as well. Some jobs recategorized to sound better. Man lose job. Man get minimum wage job. Man spend next month desperately trying to hold on and going deeper into debt. Man get raise. Man still make six dollars an hour less than man did at former job. Man work hard enough to finally earn his prior salary. By now man's kids chasing rats to eat. Man go on welfare? No. Man above poverty line. Man sad.

Does that help clarify? I'm afraid I have to be condescending since you clearly cannot understand my position when I speak to you as an adult.

"Gas prices have been at an all time high" How is this possible since we went to war for oil?

When did I say that?

"Get a new job! Again, you don't need big government to solve your problems."

Getting a new job. I'm looking for one with benefits. It's far easier for me to handle this because I am young, and have a LOT of different skills which makes me eligible for a lot of different kinds of work which potentially offer good pay and benefits. If I were in need of a job, had been let go from an industry I'd worked in for ten years whose opportunities had dried up in my community, it would be very difficult to start over.

"The fact that you think it is their job tells me that you feel that you are entitled to what other people work for!"

Oh please. For starters, I am employed, and I pay my taxes, so don't give me this "what other people work for" crap. I do not expect the government to "give me health care". What I have SEEN is that health care costs are higher than people can conceivably pay without insurance, and the cost of insurance is unattainable for many people. I do not believe that whether you DIE should be determined by how much money you make, even if it means I get hit a bit for it.

My point in saying I'm young and healthy is that a slightly better job, even without health care, will result in my being able to pay for it. My rates aren't that high. Having too many businesses unwilling to provide health care for employees burdens the system. The employees still get sick, still are hospitalized, cannot pay their bills, and they get absorbed. The patient's credit is ruined, but does it help the economy? No. It also leads to substandard medical care which can cost the system someone who was working and paying taxes. The employee, if their job doesn't cover it, can always pay for themselves, right?

For me, it's easy to say yes. For a forty year old with pre-existing conditions who may be overweight or smoke? Pretty impossible. I could use your logic and tell them to get over it, get a new job, and stop smoking?

"The economy is spurred when the private sector is free to invest and profiteer. Tax cuts do just that!"

Then wouldn't the economy prosper more if we did away with taxes altogether?

"I laugh at liberals who throw the deficit up! I notice that deficit spending didn't bother you for 35 years prior."

Considering I've been alive for almost twenty-four years, and concerned with politics for about seven years, I suspect you are again waving your pitchfork at the liberal hordes instead of addressing the issue.

"Also jobs are up, up and up. Look back over the past 19 months!"

Net loss, lower annual salary, higher cost of living, huge numbers who've lost health care benefits. Hooray!

"Again, thanks to the GOP controlled Congress and the "Contract with America" in 1994"

Wow, and you accuse *me* of biased sources.

"Ishie, I know you won't be swayed. You are so partisanly blinded, nothing I say is going to make a difference. I just wish your opinions were based on facts and not the leftist propaganda."

In other words, you realize you have no real position, so instead of acknowledging that, you're going to paint me with a liberal paint brush, accuse me of positions I do not share that I did not state and treat me like a misguided young buck who is a tool of the traitorous Kerry, and tell me I'll grow into your position. Really the last bastion of someone who has no argument.

If you're tired of it, if you disagree, if whatever, feel free to state it, but don't insult my intelligence, Robert. I have consistently backed my statements up with sources and logically explained my position. You have tossed off accusations, been condescending, and deliberately misrepresented my position by setting up strawmen left and right. I'd say your tactics are no better than your president's, but he is better at using them.

"But I'll always remember what Winston Churchill said. "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.""

Again, meaning once I 'grow up', I'll see your point of view, and for now you can pat me on the head for being cute, provided I don't get "stupid" when I age.

This has been an exceptionally long post. Perhaps you will surprise me by actually acknowledging MY position instead of what you perceive a dehumanized liberal mass to be. Somehow, I doubt it.

Ishie

where can I send money to help move those who live outside AC and want to live there?

how long will it take for the AC residents to determine they are going to have to demand non-residents help support them?

Since my last post wasn't novelesque enough.

"Does anyone who feels that homosexuality is immoral qualify as homophobic?"

I know you were speaking to my dad, but I'd like to make my thoughts known on this subject as well.

Though given little attention, homosexuality (the sex at least) is not supported by the Bible not just in Leviticus (most of which is completely ignored by Christians), but Romans as well.

Feeling homosexuality is immoral is not homophobic. Everyone has a different idea of immorality, and I don't label people for it. Orthodox Jews largely condemn the practice of homosexuality, as do Muslims, as do many Christians. The same group also condemns adultery with various definitions on what the word means.

When people want to pass legislation to prevent gays from having the same rights as other couples, THEN it starts appearing homophobic.

"The problem with this is that he doesn't believe that."

But the fact that he doesn't believe that is problematic. He can no longer even come up with a clear reason for why we invaded Iraq, but he still acts as if it was a necessary decision, and seems not to care at all about our diplomatic backslide. I want America to be a part of the world, not above it.

"I'm sure there is dozen, maybe hundred of mistakes that the President could make on himself, but why should he give the opposition more fodder when they seem to have enough already?"

You aren't avoiding fodder for democrats. By acknowledging it, you take the wind out of their sails. So long as you hold true to "no errors", they can hold your arrogance up to the records. If you say "this happened, it shouldn't have happened, I'm taking steps so it won't happen again, and I'm sorry"... what do they say? "Bush said he screwed up!" "Yeah? We all saw it. Get a platform."

"I know Kerry wasn't your man"

Hallelujah, praise the lord!!!!

"Liberals have taken the so called seperation of church and state and bastardized it to mean that we can't do anything that offends anyone."

Since when? "Liberals" tend to support not having religion pushed through public institutions. Some of the far lefties take it way too far, I agree, but probably on different issues than you would think. By the way, when people mention you using 'liberals' as a dirty word, this is the sort of thing that supports it. Liberals bastardize the separation clause to avoid offending anyone. Come on.

"Stone monuments to the ten commandments"

Which version? Protestants, Catholics, and Hebrews have altered versions. And which Biblical version? The commonly accepted ones which were broken, or the ones Moses brought back to the people which includes "all the first-borne are mine"?

Why would these be in federal institutions? They're predominantly religious. If we're going for a display on history of ancient law, then at least toss Hammarabi's code in. It was more specific and inspired much of Biblical law. It would be an excellent addition to a historic display.

"or the words "under god" in the pledge of allegiance"

Not to be trite, but the Pledge was written in 1898. The words "under God" were added in 1956 specifically to distinguish our oath from secular "commie" ones.

The problem isn't so much with these things themselves, but the sentiment attached. How DARE people try to keep the Ten Commandments out of schools and courts? And I think... "uh... why would we put them in?"

"...impairs a secular education for all children regardless of faith."

The fact that creationism is still taught alongside science, despite the ONLY reason for it being political pressure, is a sign we are not necessarily far enough along to be strengthening federally supported religious influence in schools.

"It's meant to suggest that they want to force me to recognize their union as a "marriage" when I don't want to."

It does? I thought it wanted to force the government to acknowledge it. Since many gays are religious, as you've stated, they may believe it best and moral to be united under God.

You don't have to acknowledge it. Some strict Catholics do not acknowledge marriages if one or both parties have been divorced before and consider their union adultery. That is their right. It is not their right to make that legal.

Ishie

Robert,

“Most Christians that study the bible come to other conclusions about the subject.”

That, I’m afraid is subjective. I know of no unbiased studies or polls that conclude either way. That is perhaps because, on this subject, there are NO unbiased groups :-).

“Last, I am sure you are aware that muslims also condemn homosexuality vehemently. Good thing Arafat was in the closet about it!”

Having lived for two years in Afghanistan many years ago, I found that the preaching and the practice were VERY separate issues. At that time, Afghanistan was heavily fundamentalist, and the Koran is much more specific than the bible in its prohibition. How the widespread practice of homosexuality was justified with their religion is something that I never learned. They weren’t even in the closet about it. Of course the prohibition of “letting tobacco touch the lips” is also a doctrine that is seldom followed. No argument here, just some interesting facts.

“I don't know what liberals are looking for other than a tacit apology and acknowledgment by Bush that going into Iraq was wrong. The problem with this is that he doesn't believe that. I'm sure there is dozen, maybe hundred of mistakes that the President could make on himself, but why should he give the opposition more fodder when they seem to have enough already?