xtcian

The pressure ... how about "Why the hell aren't you coming to Paris?"

Um, because we're going to London, Ms. Ballou-Lamotte! Why don't you come there and join John Lasala and me for a drink?

Okay, now the THIRD commenter has to provide today's topic.

How about the following two topics; one really deep and one really self-serving.

First, do any of you on this list think you could ever summon the compassion and faith that the Amish grandfather did, after he encouraged all of the children and families to forgive the horrible killer who executed the little schoolgirls?

Second, what are the secrets you frequent flying parents have for flying with infants? Tonight's flight from the ATL to San Diego was our 7 and 1/2 month old son's first plane ride. He did as well as could be expected, but the first hour of the trip was not fun for him.

As a selfish aside, please include any good suggestions on things to do here in San Diego, where we'll be hanging out all week. We are staying at the Hotel Del Coronado.

Greg, we've flown on about 14 or so round trips, but none longer than 2.5 hrs. Keys for us, though probably the obvious: Schedule flights for naptime, DVD player!, feed the young 'un (if still bottle/BF) upon takeoff and landing...we never bought NV a seat before age 2 due to the shorter flights, and then booked the aisle and window seats hoping no one would book the middle, and we could use it anyway. The bulkhead is always nice to end up in as you have some good floor space. I also picked up this Baby B'Air off Ebay to alleviate my earlier fears of the kid flying off my lap in turbulance. ATL airport is great in that we always could bypass the main security line and go through the lightening fast special assistance line. As JP gets older, its much easier to not have to pack as much foodwise, and you can use snacks to help pass the time. Hope you're not in exile in SD until football season is over.

Oh, on the first question...unfortunately, probably not right off the bat like that, though I can see how reaching out to the guy's widow and kids is much more feasible.

I found the grandfather's comments so incredibly moving. To me that is the message of Christianity - forgiveness - the complete and most difficult kind. Most of us can't imagine it though. Think of what the world would be like if were able to forgive people more fully - our friends/enemies nearby and far away. I like the idea of a world where forgiveness trumps an eye for an eye. I was also impressed that they included the shooter's family in with the victims' for the contributions, etc.
Could I do what that grandfather did? I don't know. I'd like to think so but I've learned that you really don't know how you will respond to any tragedy or surprise in life until it happens to you. I think anger and grief are so all-consuming after a tragedy that it can be hard to respond in any other way. This man's response speaks to incredible strength of character and faith.
As for kids on planes I don't think there are any magic bullets. I'd be careful with benedryl though as I've seen kids have the reverse response to antihistamines and get more wired! That's a bad one to happen on a plane. Feeding them (drinking something) on the way up and down to help with the ear clearing is a good idea. My kids both have trouble with the ear thing. Also, if your kid is old enough wrapping up little presents (even old things from home they haven't seen in a while) that they open every 30 minutes or something is good. Lots of snacks and cross your fingers. On our Alaska trip we had every parents worst nightmare - the HUGE dirty diaper within the first 30 minutes of the flight! We survived it though although we got some dirty looks from seatmates!
Never been to San Diego, sorry. Have a great trip Ian and GFWD!

Oh, and on the subject of the Amish.. I recommend The Devil's Playground - a documentary about how they let their teenagers go out in to the world (The Devil's Playground) to decide if they want to follow the Amish lifestyle. I had no idea they did this and it is fascinating to see these kids and follow their decision making process. I found that also very open minded (a trait that surprised me in such conservative people) - to allow kids to decide for themselves after having a chance to experience both lives.

Dude - make sure you call when you're here!
Love Zxxxx

Greg - Had i gotten here early enough, I would have asked the exact same question. I have been in awe of these people's forgiveness and that it has come so quickly. I would like to say that eventually I could forgive, because to continue to hate someone like this could eventually destroy my life as well. But that is looking at the situation with reason, if it happened to my child, I just don't know if I could do it. The Amish have set a wonderful example and I would try to follow it.

As to the second question, when they get a little older - DVD and lots of snacks.

Scruggs - when is your baby due?

GFWD -- I have been thinking about the Amish grandfather a lot lately. First, I would not have the compassion and/or faith to act as he did. I have also been wondering if his reaction was a healthy one. Unlike the rest of America, the Amish are unfamiliar with the concept of violence (in the sense that they are not exposed to violent images on TV or film, and the group preaches pacificism). How are the children processing these events? Are they allowed to express emotions such as rage, anger, frustration? Or, are they immediately being told to suppress any kind of anger for the sake of forgiveness.

Since the Amish are so insular, I am afraid that there may not be any outlets for the Amish to deal with their post-traumatic stress. Especially on the wake of events that are so alien to their society.

Neva - I'm curious about that...thanks for the documentary recommendation.

I remember now that the time the Amish teens go out into the "English" world is called "rumspringa" (a cute word - sounded like a refreshing drink to have on a sunny day). Anyway, LFMD has a good point I hadn't considered, although I think culture plays a big part in how we grieve. "Processing" grief is such a 20th century idea and the stages of grief were just recently described by Kubler Ross and may be relevant to our modern society not theirs. Although they may not "process" their grief I imagine they have a very strong sense of community and have come together in support of each other in their own way and that can't be underestimated. I have been impressed that the sense of community is such a comfort to people and why people of stronger faith and family communities do better with medical problems and depression (there are pretty good studies on this). I think this lack of family and community support may be why our modern society suffers from more PTSD than was described in the past, but maybe we've just come to understand and describe it now. I'm always amazed at how almost all families of the 1800s suffered through the loss a child and such hardships and kept going.
Before you get the idea that I'm ready to join the Amish, I was totally turned off to the fact that if their child leaves the Amish faith the family "shuns" them completely. This doesn't strike me as particularly forgiving. I think it does speak to their strong need to keep the culture insulated from the outside. I guess they can't let kids come and go - they have to choose one way and stick with it, but that shunning your child seems harder to imagine than forgiving their killer to me.

Zia, I taught your Math 10 class back in the day, though I'm pretty sure that wasn't your most enjoyable class by far. Hope all is well!

LFMD...we're on the home stretch! Due Nov 26th, right after Thanksgiving. Just crossed the 33 week mark. Struggling on coming up with girl names for some reason. I'll have to shoot you an email.

I doubt I could forgive the killer, although my heart breaks for his poor wife and thier children, who loved him very much and now must deal with the fallout of their husband/father becoming an intensely hated person, on the news, etc. A total stranger to them now. And it sounds a bit patronizing to question if their reaction is "healthy"--I would say yes, it is. For them. I doubt also that they are "unfamiliar with violence," perphaps just (blessedly) unfamiliar with the entertainment industry and the media's violence as entertainment that we seem to accept so readily.

I hope that I could do what the Amish grandfather did, but I have a very specific conception of forgiveness. I think forgiveness is a process. It is the act of replacing blame, anger at the aggressor, and hatred with compassion and grace. And I don't think you can just say, "You're forgiven," and it's done, much like "I'm sorry," takes time and effort. Contrition is an act, and for me, so is forgiveness. So I think I could forgive this man, but it would not be with one proclamation. It would be with lots of tiny changes in attitude and behavior. I like that the grandfather is trying to help his community change their attitudes by saying that the killer is not evil, and to help them pray for and assist the killer's family. I think those are parts of forgiveness.

LFMD makes a good point about suppressing grief and rage in place of blithe acceptance. I don't think that's what happens in forgiveness, and I'm not sure that's what the community elders are encouraging everyone to do. I think the virtue of forgiveness is in its humanity. While so many things in grief seem senseless, so many of its urges seem so raw and inhuman, forgiveness is something that can be done through and with grief that will use and produce compassion.

i feel very mixed about ideas of grief and forgivesness and what's antithetical to "healthy" healing...there was a lovely short piece in the times this weekend called "good grief" about the ways that we process tragedy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/07/opinion/07etzioni.html?_r=1&em&ex=1160366400&en=491d87a7bee35513&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin

it made a lot of sense to me, in the framework of the few serious and painful losses that i've experienced.

i also feel very wary of lumping the amish all together as the bench-mark for ways to forgive. i wonder if there are members of the amish community who are furious, struggling, and unable to express their rage...just a thought.

as for san diego, make sure you get over to la jolla. if you're lucky, the seals will all be chilling on the public beach. they're fabulous.

and, ian and tessa, safe travels with lucy!!

Concerning San Diego, I second La Jolla. It is one of the best beaches - it's clean and safe. And if you walk a bit north, and cross the rocks, you get into Black's Beach, the southern part of which is *not* naked, but relatively deserted. It's beautiful. I'm out there a lot with my boyfriend, and we *love* the zoo. (And I *hate* zoos, with the exception of SD.) Of course, there is always Balboa Park. We like to go to Point Loma (the tide pools there are fun in the late fall/winter when the tides get low enough). If you like kitsch, go to Tijuana ;) Have fun!

GREG! I live 90 minutes from San Diego. Will you be around this weekend? Would you like a visit from the family? Call me! Matt and I would love to see you.

If I don't hear from you, here are my recommendations for San Diego:
Wild Animal Park
Balboa Park: Museum of Man, the art museum, airplane museum, model train museum, etc... Just wandering around the park is fun.

Regarding the amish grandpa, I might be forgiving someday, but not right after it happened. It's just horrifying to think about.

Ian and Tessa, have a great time! We took our kids to London when Sarah was 14 months and Ethan was 3.5. It was a wonderful trip, except that Sarah decided that everything tasted different, and she went on a hunger strike. Basically she ate bananas and fries for 10 days. And then she was really constipated. But other than that, we had a great trip, and because it was early November, we had the tourist sites to ourselves. Have fun.

I know nothing about topic number two, so I will defer to greater wisdom on that one.

As for number one, I have been struggling with this very question since the Colorado and Pennsylvania classroom invasions of the past week and a half, and I have to be honest: if my child was killed for no reason by one of these maniacs, I might be able to show compassion for the killer's family (their lives would be about as shattered as mine, especially if the killer took what seems to be the preferred route and killed himself or herself before confronting any accountability for his/her actions), but I would never be able to forgive the killer. If that makes me a small person, so be it. My late grandfather, a minister, would counsel me to forgive in the long run as some posters have discussed above, but I am convinced I'd never get there.

personally i think the christian "forgiveness" ethos is kind of overrated, probably because i'm not christian and i don't look at it through that lens. i guess if you believe in the ultimate checklist of good vs. bad actions after death and kingdom of heaven, etc., then you could say forgiveness has inherent value on the good side of the official checklist. otherwise i don't see a lot of benefit to forgiving someone who hurt your family. i'm not sure that you HAVE to forgive to heal.

i'm thinking it's entirely possible to live a compassionate and just life without forgiving people who choose to destroy life. forgiveness is like saying "it's ok". but killing is not "ok", particularly if you don't happen to believe in some higher being that has some greater plan or scheme in which the killing is somehow ok.

i wouldn't judge people who choose to forgive, and i think it's fine if you choose to forgive someone who kills your family members if that is how you personally come to your own internal peace and move on with your life, but that's certainly not the only way it can be dealt with. some people, for example start a crusade to try to prevent it from happening again and that is their catharsis.

...my only other plane ride tips other than the DVD's, surprise treat bag and OTC meds are to book late night or red-eye flights, and also i'd say if your baby cries, just completely ignore anyone who rolls their eyes or grumbles or worse. people get all crotchety and uptight about babies crying on planes are just complete jerks. probably the same people who won't give a pregnant woman a seat on the train.

My wife and I saw "Devil's Playground" and thought the rumspringa/walkabout as it works nowadays doesn't actually imply a whole lot of courage or openness. Amish enjoy some kind of exemption from public school standards, so graduating teens come out with an 8th grade equivalent education, according to the documentary. They're not ready for college and they're likely to have no friends or relatives on the outside to house them or help make ends meet. They don't even have the connections to start selling crack. It's such a long leap to a life of any comfort on the outside that it's no wonder that most seem to approach the thing like it's Spring Break in Ft Lauderdale.

oliver, oliver. oliver----isn't that your mother calling you????

Just to clarify, I meant: "doesn't actually imply a whole lot of courage or openness" on the part of the parents and the community who let their kids run loose in the world.

And especially given the rigidly enforced penalty of being totally ostracized by everyone they formerly knew and loved in the event they choose not to return. These people are authentic American extremists. They just don't do it with bombs.

"They just don't do it with bombs."

Yeah, kind of an important distinction, don't you think?