xtcian

(From the cold in northern France - ville Clichy) I too have a deep mistrust of these folks. They are Taliban, make no mistake about it.

I think one needs to avoid blanket prejudices of all sorts. Jesus didn't say it (but he should have): the assholes will always be with us. But Christians, as a group, are as varied as Muslims, Agnostics, and hockey fans.

The real battle is not with Christians but with assholes of all stripes. That's a much more difficult battle, because it takes discernment to see who is an asshole, and who is not.

Especially when looking in the mirror.

(and no Ian, I'm not saying you're an asshole, just that everyone can drift into assholishness if they're not careful)

If it makes you feel any better, most of them can't hear 18Hz either...

Yeah, okay - that didn't make me feel any better either.

Today it was "objurgate". I usually can't make it through an entire week without having to look up at least one SAT word in your blog posts. Today it was objurgate. I'm going to use that word ten times between now and Saturday. I 'objurgate' all disciples of Rat Bastard. Nine more to go!

"Nowhere in the column does Kristof mention the death penalty, which to many of us is the prime hypocrisy of religious anti-choice zealots..."

Ugh.....can't the same be said of those who favor abortion rights and are against the death penalty?

Death or life. You can only pick one. I pick death.

And to your last comment- we all need to remember that "abortion" is not a fundamental right of being a woman. Choosing to have a penis inserted in your body is. Please don't confuse to two.

First of all, if it weren't for liberal snobbishness, we wouldn't have civil rights, women's suffrage, unemployment insurance, public education, Medicare, child labor laws, and the "weekend".

and if it weren't for Jesus we wouldn't have Christmas, Easter Egg hunts or the short film that launched South Park . life is full of trade offs.

Please look carefully at Schultz's comment, because this is the anti-abortion stance in its entirety. The *justification* for denying abortion rights is the so-called "unborn" (which is a term that seems culled from a horror movie, to me), but the real reason behind it is simply, they don't want women to be able to sleep with anyone they want whenever they want. They want *consequences*, because they hate people who are sexually liberated.

The advances of science have freed us from some of the more horrible consequences of our lives. We can eat some candy and then brush our teeth. We can break our leg skiing down a mountain, and then get a cast and fix it. These things aren't cured by *prayer*, we rely on doctors and the medical community to help us with these things.

But since these thrills aren't *sexual* in nature, the religious right hasn't attempted to squelch it. These are people who are trying to figure out how to have sex with the same one person they married when they were 19 and had six kids with, and they are absolutely FURIOUS that other people just said, "Nah. I'm gonna just go with being happy. And if I get pregnant, I've got a way around it."

They're red faced and stomping and screaming that the blastocyst has some "right" to exist, and if a woman chooses to enjoy a night of sexual intercourse with a man she doesn't know very well, but who's attractive and really good at sex, she should be SADDLED FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE WITH HIS OFFSPRING.

I'm a father. I have another baby on the way. And nothing has codified my belief in abortion like being a parent. Abortions should be ten times as prevalent as they are, they should be *common*. Nobody should have to raise a child unless they desperately want to, and the idea that anyone is trying to enact laws that FORCE people to raise kids that they DON'T WANT seems to be the most idiotic idea available.

I'm with Kent on this one: you shouldn't say "evangelical Christians are awful" in the same way you shouldn't say "fundamentalist Muslims are awful" or "orthodox Jews are awful" or whatever. Blanket prejudice is just too blunt an instrument to actually be true.

But as for Schulz, sadly, most women don't have the fundamental right to choose whether or not a penis is inserted in their bodies. There are a wide assortment of coercive pressures put on women to take some dude's un-condomed wang into their body, ranging from the steady drumbeat of social sanction through economic dependence and ending of course with brute force.

Ian, buddy, congratulations on a post that includes evangelicals, AND could be published anywhere, without expletive edits!

Jason, I hate to be a cynic, but Hallmark or Coca Cola would have invented the Egg hunt anyway. It might have been called the Sprite Can Safari.

Hey, are eggs and milk chocolate Kosher?

Semantics. Nevermind.

Let's talk about population control.

Yeah, I bristled at "snobbishness" and "snooty", too. It's not that I'm a snob, dammit. It's that I'm leery, due to everything you mentioned and the fact that experience has shown that even when they claim not to link aid with faith, somehow, so often, proselytizing (and spreading lovely ideas like homophobia) happen anyway. But mostly it's being leery due to precedent. How is that being snobby or snooty? I think Kristof needs to catch up on his sleep or something.

Wondering if Kristoff also tut-tuts about "liberal snobbishness" against white supremacist groups, sex offenders and suicide bombers.

Also wondering if Schultz is furious about laws that restrict his use of Rohypnol to obtain sex, because they interfere with his freedom.

Classy

Schultz, parts of your comment touched several nerves, obviously. I really need to point out some women who are very careful and responsible in their sexual behavior GET PREGNANT ANYWAY. That's why they talk about the 99% success rates of condoms and the pill. There is that 1%.

Is everyone supposed to be abstinent unless they want to have a baby? Is that, honestly, your belief?

Or, more to the point, is every *woman* supposed to be abstinent unless she wants to have a baby?

Annie- of course I do not believe people should be abstinent unless they want to have a baby.

Ehren- of course I understand there are terrible circumstances involving pregnancies.

I've stated my position clearly before- I am pro-choice. To be consistent, I am pro-death penalty.

Put the nukes down

The Catholic Church has a "whole cloth" position in relationship to abortion and the death penalty. The church believes that life begins at conception and is therefore opposed to abortion. It also believes that the death penalty is wrong because, obviously, it is taking a life.

Which, in this particular instance, makes the Catholic Church a coherent institution.

But it is lazy to reverse the argument. Which is to say, people who oppose the death penalty and are pro-choice have an intellectually rigorous position.

Overwhelmingly, the scientific data supports that conception represents the *potential* for life rather than life. The embryo's relationship to the mother is parasitic not independent. Therefore the ethical preeminence lies with mother.

Now, this doesn't even begin to touch on the far more insidious social issues - many of which have been touched on above.

I am adamantly opposed to the death penalty. State-sponsored murder is ludicrous.

And I have very mixed feelings about abortion but I am unequivocal that this not a decision that the state should make. This is up to a woman - whose birth control may have failed, or who was raped, or who lives in unrelenting poverty, or who's an irresponsible twat.

And, not to get all feminist on you all, but it is just sheer hubris for any man to impose his belief system on a pregnant woman. In this country, 1 in 5 women will be the victim of sexual assault BY A MAN. So, y'all got some serious thinking to do before you start legislating my behavior.

I have to say that Gloria Steinem famous quote on this issue still holds up for me... "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

Commentary in parts.

On Tone
I always struggle with these posts of yours, Ian. It just seems so odd to me to counter what you seem to view as hateful ignorance with posts that sound to me like hateful ignorance. I’m not even saying I disagree with you (yet), I’m just saying that the tone doesn’t do your argument any favors.

On Abortion
I see the abortion / death penalty divide in a slightly different way. The fundamental question to me on abortion is when life begins. I view this as a question of opinion, not necessarily one of fact. Conception? Viability? Birth? I can see any of these being a viable belief for when life begins. Before that point, you’re talking about a medical procedure, after that point you’re killing something. Because it’s a matter of opinion, I don’t have a problem with people voting their conscience based on their own view.

On the Death Penalty
Once it has been determined that someone committed a crime, this is a simple question of whether killing someone is ‘on the menu.’ Each person’s conscience should dictate whether they thing is a valid alternative, with due consideration to concerns regarding fairness of application, cost to society of doing so (both monetary and political), etc. I don’t have problem with people voting their conscience based on their own view. I fail to see why this has anything to do with someone’s view of when life begins.

On Crazy People
I’m not saying there aren’t crazy people out there. People who kill doctors are lunatics. People who oppose all abortions because of the ‘sanctity of human life’ but support the death penalty do indeed appear to have inconsistent beliefs. But to say that all people who think that life begins at conception and that life shouldn’t be ended without their doing something terrible first to deserve it are somehow stupid evil bigots is, in my view, ignorant grandstanding.

On My Views
Not that anyone should care, but as long as I’m throwing the rest of this out there, I guess I should put my cards on the table. My first answer is that I really just don’t care that much.

I am more persuaded by practical considerations. Abortion seems to reduce crime and poverty, so why not. The death penalty seems to cost a bunch of money and doesn’t seem to be applied fairly, so maybe we should stop that. Or alternatively we could just agree to summarily execute anyone convicted of three felonies without all the years of high-cost housing we right now, and just say it’s okay if there are some false positives in there, but chances are that someone who’s been convicted of three felonies is probably guilty of something bad.

On Screaming
I just don’t get some of the comments on here. Full disclosure: I’m a registered Republican, but I’m liberal in most ways, and I’ve never voted for anyone but a Democrat for president. I get that these are personal issues for people, but don’t liberals like to view themselves as the more open, nuanced, inclusive people? As a relatively neutral guy, I have to say that day-to-day I actually experience and witness more invective from the “Left” than from the “Right.”

Does someone want to chime in now that the only possible reason for me to believe what I believe is because I want to do terrible things with my penis? Do we have to accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with us in every way of being a terrible person? Isn’t some of this a little ridiculous? Seriously, I welcome any feedback to this stuff.

Bruce, you remind me of some of my Mormon uncles: some pretty unsavory stuff cloaked in warm, thoughtful commentary.

On abortion, you say "I don’t have a problem with people voting their conscience based on their own view."

Which is why it's okay to vote for a white guy if you don't like black people, I guess. But it doesn't mean that I can't call it like I sees it.

On the death penalty, you wrote: "to say that all people who think that life begins at conception and that life shouldn’t be ended without their doing something terrible first to deserve it are somehow stupid evil bigots is, in my view, ignorant grandstanding."

Sure - if "ignorant grandstanding" means "I think a government that kills its own people is barbaric and morally nauseating" then sign me up.

You also write "day-to-day I actually experience and witness more invective from the 'Left' than from the 'Right'."

Really? Who are you hanging out with, and can I come?

I LOVE this blog!